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Mr P Hucker
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Message 48851 - Posted: 29 Oct 2023, 21:57:07 UTC

I see from Wikipedia, LHC excluded Russian scientists. Why? Why take away experts in physics because of politics? The war has nothing to do with their contribution to LHC.
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Message 48855 - Posted: 30 Oct 2023, 19:47:55 UTC - in response to Message 48851.  

I imagine that no one here was involved with the decision, the best place to direct your questions would be https://council.web.cern.ch/en/content/council-secretariat
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Message 48856 - Posted: 30 Oct 2023, 19:56:13 UTC - in response to Message 48855.  

A council, I won't hold my breath, I emailed them anyway.
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Message 48862 - Posted: 31 Oct 2023, 16:39:16 UTC

A couple more authorities that have a say in who can/can't work at CERN (including the LHC) are the Fench & Swiss immigration and visa people.
One consideration is that Russia is not a "full" member of CERN, only having "observer" or "partial" membership, so don't have the same sort of rights to be there as those from countries that are "full" members.
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Message 48868 - Posted: 31 Oct 2023, 22:22:45 UTC - in response to Message 48862.  
Last modified: 31 Oct 2023, 22:23:35 UTC

I thought countries tended to be happy with intelligent folk coming in, for example the UK welcomes foreign doctors.

Presumably the Russian scientists were providing input to the LHC, and the more input, the more it achieves.
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Message 48873 - Posted: 1 Nov 2023, 7:35:09 UTC - in response to Message 48868.  

UK scientists get also problems after UK leaving EU.
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Message 48874 - Posted: 1 Nov 2023, 8:09:12 UTC - in response to Message 48873.  

UK scientists get also problems after UK leaving EU.
That's odd considering we welcome doctors from India/Pakistan. So scientists aren't considered important?
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Message 48889 - Posted: 3 Nov 2023, 22:46:28 UTC - in response to Message 48851.  

I see from Wikipedia, LHC excluded Russian scientists. Why? Why take away experts in physics because of politics? The war has nothing to do with their contribution to LHC.

Please quote your source. I'm not currently aware of any decision by LHC or CERN or any of the experiments to "exclude" Russian scientists. I do know that there was an intense debate after Russia's invasion of Ukraine over how the experiments should treat scientists from Russia, Ukraine and perhaps Belarus insofar as crediting inputs to research. This was primarily to do with inclusion of attributions in author lists of publications, and also acknowledgements of national support in appendices. The consultation took well over a year before a consensus was reached and it's only in the last few months that we have been submitting articles to scholarly journals again, and having them accepted for publication[1].

[1] I know this because I register CMS publications with the University's research archives, and since sometime last year the list of accepted publications dwindled to a mere trickle. Once the new protocol was accepted, more and more papers are coming in for registration, but unfortunately after my accident I've not had access to my computers to update the data. Currently, beyond that fateful 1st August I have 47 new papers to process once I'm allowed back on campus.
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Message 48891 - Posted: 4 Nov 2023, 4:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 48889.  

I see from Wikipedia, LHC excluded Russian scientists. Why? Why take away experts in physics because of politics? The war has nothing to do with their contribution to LHC.
Please quote your source. I'm not currently aware of any decision by LHC or CERN or any of the experiments to "exclude" Russian scientists. I do know that there was an intense debate after Russia's invasion of Ukraine over how the experiments should treat scientists from Russia, Ukraine and perhaps Belarus insofar as crediting inputs to research. This was primarily to do with inclusion of attributions in author lists of publications, and also acknowledgements of national support in appendices. The consultation took well over a year before a consensus was reached and it's only in the last few months that we have been submitting articles to scholarly journals again, and having them accepted for publication[1].
"With the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the participation of Russians with CERN was called into question. About 8% of the workforce are of Russian nationality. In June 2022, CERN said the governing council "intends to terminate" CERN's cooperation agreements with Belarus and Russia when they expire, respectively in June and December 2024. CERN said it would monitor developments in Ukraine and remains prepared to take additional steps as warranted.[80][81] CERN further said that it would reduce the Ukrainian contribution to CERN for 2022 to the amount already remitted to the Organization, thereby waiving the second installment of the contribution."
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Exclusion_of_Russia

[1] I know this because I register CMS publications with the University's research archives, and since sometime last year the list of accepted publications dwindled to a mere trickle. Once the new protocol was accepted, more and more papers are coming in for registration, but unfortunately after my accident I've not had access to my computers to update the data. Currently, beyond that fateful 1st August I have 47 new papers to process once I'm allowed back on campus.
I take it 1st August was your accident in the kitchen? Why are they not allowing you back in?
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Message 48894 - Posted: 4 Nov 2023, 12:47:52 UTC - in response to Message 48891.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2023, 12:50:15 UTC

I see from Wikipedia, LHC excluded Russian scientists. Why? Why take away experts in physics because of politics? The war has nothing to do with their contribution to LHC.
Please quote your source. I'm not currently aware of any decision by LHC or CERN or any of the experiments to "exclude" Russian scientists. I do know that there was an intense debate after Russia's invasion of Ukraine over how the experiments should treat scientists from Russia, Ukraine and perhaps Belarus insofar as crediting inputs to research. This was primarily to do with inclusion of attributions in author lists of publications, and also acknowledgements of national support in appendices. The consultation took well over a year before a consensus was reached and it's only in the last few months that we have been submitting articles to scholarly journals again, and having them accepted for publication[1].
"With the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the participation of Russians with CERN was called into question. About 8% of the workforce are of Russian nationality. In June 2022, CERN said the governing council "intends to terminate" CERN's cooperation agreements with Belarus and Russia when they expire, respectively in June and December 2024. CERN said it would monitor developments in Ukraine and remains prepared to take additional steps as warranted.[80][81] CERN further said that it would reduce the Ukrainian contribution to CERN for 2022 to the amount already remitted to the Organization, thereby waiving the second installment of the contribution."
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Exclusion_of_Russia
OK, thanks for that. I guess that's partly the reason there was so much debate over how scientists from the countries involved should be acknowledged in future publications. I would make two quibbles: a) it was CERN's decision to take those actions, not the LHC's; and b) the decision affects the nations involved, not individual scientists per se, although there may be inevitable trickle-down effects to individuals, according to policy. I'd also note that whilst 8% of the workforce (however that's defined) are of Russian nationality a good proportion are employed by organisations outside Russia itself (other universities, and even directly by CERN). If CERN were to sever its co-operation agreement with Australia, I would expect my participation not to be affected since I work for a UK institution!

[1] I know this because I register CMS publications with the University's research archives, and since sometime last year the list of accepted publications dwindled to a mere trickle. Once the new protocol was accepted, more and more papers are coming in for registration, but unfortunately after my accident I've not had access to my computers to update the data. Currently, beyond that fateful 1st August I have 47 new papers to process once I'm allowed back on campus.
I take it 1st August was your accident in the kitchen? Why are they not allowing you back in?

Yes, that was when I had my fall. I'm being excluded because of the amount of time I have had on sick-leave, and my fitness to return to work has to be officially evaluated. From an email I had on Friday it looks like this evaluation is being outsourced to a contracting company, so I've no idea how long it will take nor how competent it will be.
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Message 48895 - Posted: 4 Nov 2023, 14:28:43 UTC - in response to Message 48894.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2023, 14:32:17 UTC

OK, thanks for that. I guess that's partly the reason there was so much debate over how scientists from the countries involved should be acknowledged in future publications. I would make two quibbles: a) it was CERN's decision to take those actions, not the LHC's; and b) the decision affects the nations involved, not individual scientists per se, although there may be inevitable trickle-down effects to individuals, according to policy. I'd also note that whilst 8% of the workforce (however that's defined) are of Russian nationality a good proportion are employed by organisations outside Russia itself (other universities, and even directly by CERN). If CERN were to sever its co-operation agreement with Australia, I would expect my participation not to be affected since I work for a UK institution!
So it's just how the references in papers are written? If the work is still done, the scientists are still paid, and their names are put in the relevant places in papers, it shouldn't be a problem. They're just allergic to the word Russia.

Yes, that was when I had my fall. I'm being excluded because of the amount of time I have had on sick-leave, and my fitness to return to work has to be officially evaluated. From an email I had on Friday it looks like this evaluation is being outsourced to a contracting company, so I've no idea how long it will take nor how competent it will be.
Sounds like the exact opposite of me trying to skive off er.... get sick leave for an illness. They tried to show I was capable, they're trying to show you're incapable. I take it you work in some dangerous areas and they want to make sure you don't cause some horrid accident through you not thinking clearly? Hopefully it's ATOS, they just say everyone's capable (because the government bribes them to, even if they're wheelchair bound and commit suicide because of it).

So evaluations aside, how are you feeling, have you fully recovered? This conversation remains confidential and I won't forward it to the contractor :-)
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Message 48897 - Posted: 4 Nov 2023, 17:18:25 UTC - in response to Message 48874.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2023, 17:21:19 UTC

(Who's "we"?)
That's odd considering we welcome doctors from India/Pakistan.
Only because they accept NHS pay rates...

So scientists aren't considered important?
No - (foreign) scientists are just as much seen as cheap exploitable disposable labour. That's why the UK Government's R&D people and culture strategy avoids any commitment to retaining experienced staff or supporting returns after a career break, but when it comes to getting in naive junior staff there's bullet points a-plenty!
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Message 48898 - Posted: 4 Nov 2023, 17:28:56 UTC - in response to Message 48897.  

(Who's "we"?)
The British government, and all the patients they treat.

That's odd considering we welcome doctors from India/Pakistan.
Only because they accept NHS pay rates...
They must pay them a lot considering how much it costs to perform an operation. 12 grand to replace my hip. 16 grand to put a valve in my father's heart.

So scientists aren't considered important?
No - (foreign) scientists are just as much seen as cheap exploitable disposable labour. That's why the UK Government's R&D people and culture strategy avoids any commitment to retaining experienced staff or supporting returns after a career break, but when it comes to getting in naive junior staff there's bullet points a-plenty!
Probably true. But the trouble with using junior staff is the lack of experience.
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