Message boards : Cafe LHC : Alessandro Strumia
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MK

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Message 36941 - Posted: 2 Oct 2018, 22:29:53 UTC

Fellow Boincers and fundamental physics aficionados,

Alessandro Strumia was fired from CERN yesterday as he made a presentation about gender and STEM. Basically, he argues that there is a pro-woman bias in STEM and more specifically Theory. He makes assumption, develops a methodology to prove his point. he uses a large database for empirical validation and he validates them. It's not been peer-reviewed, his code is not there and we can't yet trust it. The context is that there is some personal disappointment: he lost a position to a woman who has 1/10th of his citations and put her name there. There is also one sentence that is not politically correct (which is the only one the media reported, as you can expect).

I was appalled when I read the presentation. I expected hate and misogynistic messages and found a well argued presentation with one sentence over the top. It's not reason to terminate somebody's career! This is a dramatic consequence for emitting an opinion. Plus it happened in a workshop where people are asked specifically to talk about gender in STEM. Should a woman have done the same speech in reverse, would she be fired? Is it true that only one opinion is acceptable at CERN? Has science become blind for the dogma of gender equality of preference and equality. Can only one group be vocal about unfair practices? Isn't this kind of practice fueling resentment and the so called populism that is plaguing our democracies?

CERN should think of the idea of the presentation and not the form. The appropriate response is not to fire Strumia. CERN should rather clear its name from these allegations of unfair employment practices: Can a spokesperson a CERN confirm whether CERN's employment practices are
(A) based on equality of opportunity, i.e. based on a as-blind-as-possible recruitment process or
(B) based on equality of outcomes?
i.e. a sexist/racist filter is applied to candidates?
i.e. that some superior candidates in terms of scientific abilities or creativity are deprived of the possibility to exert their profession and aspiration, to give this opportunity to inferior candidates because these are from an "under-represented group" in terms of gender, race, height, eye color, religion?
i.e. creating an atmosphere of suspicion concerning all the members of the under-represented group, as whether they entered because of their skills or because of quotas?


Here is a link to Strumia's presentation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_NyUhOZ8erdqU2AGZJZtNfFeA91Kefj/view
I tried to create a team to support freedom of speech in science, but that feature is disable. You apparently have to get a boinc-wide account by writing an email of David Anderson. I am still waiting for the response... Anybody more skilled willing to try?
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Profile Ben Segal
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Message 36943 - Posted: 3 Oct 2018, 6:39:41 UTC - in response to Message 36941.  

Just one detail: Strumia is not a CERN employee, he was just an invited speaker from INFN in Italy. But yes, his remarks have been officially deplored by CERN and his slides removed from the CERN conference website.
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bronco

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Message 36944 - Posted: 3 Oct 2018, 14:41:41 UTC

The title of this thread is a blatant lie, just what we've come to expect from the deplo-rabble. I suspect MK had no intention of presenting any reasoned argument in the thread. I suspect he only wanted to get the lie in the title established as a mainstream fact, a title he and his deplorables can link to in the future and claim to be established fact in their ever expanding echo chamber of lies. Except it's not a fact. It's total crap from a pathetic Trumpian bizzaroverse.

In the name of all that is decent, in the name of keeping it real, please delete this thread.
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Profile Magic Quantum Mechanic
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Message 36947 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 8:48:57 UTC

A Trudeau-ism?
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Message 36948 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 12:05:44 UTC - in response to Message 36941.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2018, 12:17:00 UTC

I refer everyone to the official press release on this subject. I have also edited the title to remove the in accurate statement. As long as this thread remains respectful, it will not be deleted.
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Message 36950 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 15:39:41 UTC - in response to Message 36947.  

Nope. bronco-ism.
Where was Obama born?
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bronco

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Message 36951 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 15:52:55 UTC - in response to Message 36948.  

Thank you, Laurence.
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MK

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Message 36953 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 17:33:48 UTC

I am really disappointed by responses:

Bronco: Either you are a (bad) troll .. or your dichotomous view blinds you. I am no Trump's man and I actually despise him. He's a racist and sexist egoistic self-centered sociopath. Nevertheless, he's the president elect and appeal to many non-racist and non-sexists decent people because he can talk about issue that the "progressists" claimed taboo, but that affects poeple's life.
Your Clintonian attitude of calling "deplorable" anybody not sharing your views might have cost you the presidency. You say I lie while I did not (except that Strumia was not CERN's employee, but affiliated. sorry for that, but it's a minor point). But by calling lies something that is true, you open the door to all "alternative true" - of which Trump uses without any moderation. Relation to truth has been changed first by media and "progressits" first and I blame them for that.
For example, the fact that preferences of men and woman are not only cultural, but biological too became a crime. The "gender theory paradox" is taboo. No social scientist would dare work on this - unless (s)he's politicized. How can you pretend to be on the side of truth after that? Then it's easy for Trump to use that political-science springboard and make all sorts of 'alternative' claims about anything he finds convenient (global warming).
CERN's response of condemned and revoke Strumia was the wrong attitude. CERN should have proved him wrong (or not because many of his claims are correct).

Moderators:
You change the title without consulting me. I think we could agree on something better that would reflect the content of the text. At least, I didn't get deleted which I thought could have happened, so thanks for that.

The press release says that you welcome all gender, race and religion which is fine, but we know that already. This is not what I asked, and I asked an extremely clear question: Are they quotas by gender/race/nationality at CERN for scientific or managerial positions? Can you answer that? The information is known by HR and managers. Either you reveal the truth, or you hide it from public scrutiny. Withholding that information is unethical to me. People deserve to know. You are financed by tax payers, and volunteers (like me). And applicants should know when they apply at CERN what their chances are, and how their gender and race will impact positively or negatively their chances. Am I wrong?

If you do discriminate, let me tell you that I am convinced it's harmful to most:
(1) scientific progress
(2) for majority group member who fail and can never be sure why
(3) for minority group, whether they make it ('because of the quotas..) or not (even with help of quotas...)
The only one who would win are actually the "majority" who still get in (despite of quotas...).. but that's short term. They will be frustrated when comes promotion time..

Happy to keep talking. But it seems CERN's idea is to wait and do nothing. Soon that controversy will be over and you ll just keep doing whatever is decided against the will of the majority. But don't pretend to be surprised to see how politics are being reshaped and the new dimensions are establishment Vs anti-establishment, and what dramatic consequences will occur after the later eventually wins - unless the establishment agree to have a no-taboo no-name-saying public debate.
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Message 36954 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 18:13:59 UTC

We have a woman with a Physics Nobel Prize and a Chemistry Nobel prize. Strumia is wrong.
Tullio
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Message 36955 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 22:01:18 UTC - in response to Message 36953.  

Your opinion that I am a troll just because I object to the lie you put in the original title is as deplorable as it is laughable.
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Message 36957 - Posted: 5 Oct 2018, 7:59:19 UTC - in response to Message 36953.  

Moderators:
You change the title without consulting me. I think we could agree on something better that would reflect the content of the text. At least, I didn't get deleted which I thought could have happened, so thanks for that.

Moderators are there to moderate. Any content that is off topic or inappropriate is at risk of being removed. Messages containing personal insults and conversations that degenerate into the exchanging of personal insults are inappropriate.
The press release says that you welcome all gender, race and religion which is fine, but we know that already. This is not what I asked, and I asked an extremely clear question: Are they quotas by gender/race/nationality at CERN for scientific or managerial positions? Can you answer that? The information is known by HR and managers. Either you reveal the truth, or you hide it from public scrutiny. Withholding that information is unethical to me. People deserve to know. You are financed by tax payers, and volunteers (like me). And applicants should know when they apply at CERN what their chances are, and how their gender and race will impact positively or negatively their chances. Am I wrong?

As you highlighted, this question is best answered by HR. The answer may be found in the CERN Diversity Policy. Some numbers can be found in the Qucik Facts. More information is available from the press pack page, which also contains the annual reports.
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Message 36960 - Posted: 5 Oct 2018, 12:14:01 UTC - in response to Message 36953.  

A group of physicists has just published a comprehensive rebuttal of Strumia's arguments which you can find here:

https://www.particlesforjustice.org

Ben
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Message 36973 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 0:08:44 UTC - in response to Message 36960.  

A group of physicists has just published a comprehensive rebuttal of Strumia's arguments which you can find here:

https://www.particlesforjustice.org

It is a nice moral argument, but does not address any of the scientific issues (if there are any to be addressed). That is, they just assume that any differences between the performance of men and women can be explained by cultural factors, differences in education, etc. And then they threaten to blacklist the good professor for raising the subject. He could be wrong, but science did not progress this far by adopting the attitude of his critics.
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Message 36974 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 2:26:36 UTC - in response to Message 36973.  

It is a nice moral argument, but does not address any of the scientific issues
It seems you did not even bother to read the article. It addresses several of the methodologies and lines of reasoning Strumia used.

(if there are any to be addressed).
What you mean "if"? Strumia claimed his conclusions and evidence was all science and that bad science had led to ridiculous conclusions. Are you suggesting (contrary to Strumia himself) that there are no scientific issues?

That is, they just assume that any differences between the performance of men and women can be explained by cultural factors, differences in education, etc.
There exists a substantial body of work that strongly indicates it is precisely so. Thus they they are not just assuming. Unfortunately for Strumia his junk science doesn't even begin to overturn that body of work.

And then they threaten to blacklist the good professor for raising the subject.
That's utter nonsense for 2 reasons:
1) There are no threats in the statement. Please quote from the statement any lines that convey a threat to blacklist. I think you are imagining them. Deplorable.
2) They criticize him not for raising the subject but rather for presenting junk science and it is definitely junk science for all the reasons (which it seems you did not read) presented in the statement.

He could be wrong, but science did not progress this far by adopting the attitude of his critics.
ROFLMAO. His critics are of the attitude that Strumia should not present junk science. Thanks to their attitude science has come a long, long way.
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Message 36975 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 6:26:16 UTC - in response to Message 36974.  

If you can't even figure out that they are trying to blacklist the professor, then your credibility on anything else they say is not great either.
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Message 36976 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 7:53:13 UTC - in response to Message 36975.  

If you can't even figure out that they are trying to blacklist the professor, then your credibility on anything else they say is not great either.

In other words you made a stupid accusation and can't back it up after I called you on it. And now, rather than cut your losses like a smart person would do you attack the one who called your accusation exactly what it is, BS, because you have this burning need to show us all how proud you are of being deplorable.

Well done!!
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Message 36977 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 12:19:48 UTC - in response to Message 36976.  

[In other words you made a stupid accusation and can't back it up after I called you on it.

We hope that Strumia's professional colleagues and superiors will take all these points into careful consideration in all future decisions involving him.

They are trying to blacklist him. Did you read my post?
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Message 36978 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 14:31:28 UTC - in response to Message 36977.  

Sounds more like Strumia is trying to get himself blacklisted. Well he should for insulting the gathering with such junk science.
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