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Kennywor

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Message 26117 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 8:18:32 UTC

VMs are additional overhead, extra installation and hence extra dependencies, and a bloody stupid idea. It also requires all current users to reconfigure their systems. They're also not going to work on Android and lower-end ARM devices now are they, troll?

Android devices already connected here waiting for the WUs for testing....

Larger uploads are simply not a problem. If you're going to cry over bandwidth consumption then limit the network rate. The option has been there long enough.
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Message 26118 - Posted: 12 Jan 2014, 12:58:31 UTC - in response to Message 26117.  

VMs are additional overhead, extra installation and hence extra dependencies, and a bloody stupid idea.


Additional overhead that gets you something you need is overhead well spent. If you disagree then ditch your GUI OS because it requires far more overhead than certain VMs require. A VM would certainly get something this project needs badly.... consistent results from different platforms... which is well worth the miniscule overhead required by modern VMs.

Extra installation by the user is no longer required. The BOINC installer does it for you on Windows.

Stupid idea? You haven't proven that yet. The fact that the BOINC admins are investing a lot of time and effort to support VMs and the fact that the VM concept has proven very useful at at least 1 project suggests you are going to have a very difficult time convincing the rest of the BOINC community VMs are a stupid idea.

It also requires all current users to reconfigure their systems.


So what? History has proven 99% of users are fully capable of reconfiguring. Are you in the 1% who are completely baffled by any and all change? If so then don't worry, we'll hold your hand extra tight as we guide you past the scary, scary monsters that live behind Control Panel.

They're also not going to work on Android and lower-end ARM devices now are they, troll?


I'm a sock-puppet not a troll you doofus. They will work when Oracle ports Virtual Box to Android/ARM. Which won't happen until ARM powered devices are capable of contributing more than a drop to the bucket. (Go ahead, try the "but there are a gazillion of the devices out there" argument and see how far you get with that.)

Android devices already connected here waiting for the WUs for testing....


Wonderful! Then you're about to discover through experience what us non-doofuses are able to deduce.

Larger uploads are simply not a problem. If you're going to cry over bandwidth consumption then limit the network rate. The option has been there long enough.


You missed the point but on the positive side it's so nice of you to stop complaining about extra overhead long enough to tell everybody to not complain about it, hypocrite.

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Message 26126 - Posted: 16 Jan 2014, 20:06:27 UTC - in response to Message 26117.  

VMs are additional overhead, extra installation and hence extra dependencies, and a bloody stupid idea. It also requires all current users to reconfigure their systems. They're also not going to work on Android and lower-end ARM devices now are they, troll?

Android devices already connected here waiting for the WUs for testing....

Larger uploads are simply not a problem. If you're going to cry over bandwidth consumption then limit the network rate. The option has been there long enough.

Ken, perhaps you missed my statement that data usage could be managed on the users side... However, what you don't address is for the large contributors whom have multiple devices on a network. Large uploads absolutely are a concern and DO affect the network more than the small uploads do. (from a users stand point)Also, limiting bandwidth consumption means you may not be able to report the finished work unit or download new work if they are large even when there is some data usage left. Small work units are more likely to get reported or downloaded in these cases.

henry in regards to the statement that users no longer have to install any extras isn't entirely true. You are assuming they downloaded the option that came with VB. Most contributors already have BOINC installed and don't use VB. This would absolutely be an additional download for many. I will agree that Berkeley's install package with VB is pretty simple and kinda nice for those not looking for advanced options though.
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Message 26127 - Posted: 16 Jan 2014, 23:36:41 UTC - in response to Message 26126.  
Last modified: 16 Jan 2014, 23:42:23 UTC

All options except for the extension pack get installed even with the BOINC installer. The extension pack is just another simple download and install. Any user who can't handle that is probably going to forget to breath and die soon anyway but 99.9% would have no trouble. The actual configuring of the options is done in the VMI (virtual machine image) the project issues, maintains and sends to the user as a BOINC project file... again no user intervention required. On rare occasion a user has an unusual hardware or software configuration the VMI can't work with and on those rare occasions the user needs to configure a preference or 2. But that's easy.

Regarding the bandwidth... My original complaint with it was linked to Eric's plan to implement the ultra-long tasks (10 million turns or was it 100 million he was discussing?) in stages by having host A calculate the first million then sending all the resultant data (a big file) to the Sixtrack project server which then issues that big file to host B as inputs for the 2nd million turns. When host B is done the 2nd million turns it sends the resultant data (another big file) to the server which issues that big file to host C for the 3rd million turns. If you can see the pattern and appreciate the fact that the scheme requires a lot of big files being sent and received with nothing being done to the data in the file between send and receive (i.e. while it's on the server), then you begin to understand the problem I was complaining about and can see that it's a big waste of bandwidth. A much better way would be to just have 1 host do the entire 10 or 100 million turns but put an option in the website prefs that allows slower systems to opt for short tasks. Or even better, provide the mentioned option but have the server decide which systems are fast enough to handle the ultra-long tasks and which are not and send short/long tasks accordingly unless the user overrides with the option in his website prefs.

Stable, properly configured systems have no problem with 24 hour or even 48 hour tasks. Many projects have used tasks that long and even longer very successfully. Even 3 month tasks are not a problem. They have received a lot of bad press due to the 3 month tasks CPDN used to issue (and perhaps still does) but that's mostly because their app is not very robust.

That's not to say Coleslaw's concern is irrelevant or invalid. It is definitely valid, especially in North America where the cost of unlimited data plans is out of reach for the average cruncher. IIUC, many Europeans have unlimited data plans for about the same price that we pay in N. America for severely restricted data plans. What makes Eric's scheme potentially troublesome for us N. Americans is that it's our upload data that is most severely restricted yet Eric wants us to upload big files when there is a far better solution.

I am not against big uploads if there is no other way but when it isn't necessary then it must be avoided.

So please, before anybody else offers solutions like "slow your network speed down" or "nobody's forcing you to crunch this project", please think before you run off at the mouth and make sure you understand what Eric has in mind and understand the implications.
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Message 26131 - Posted: 19 Jan 2014, 15:55:56 UTC - in response to Message 26127.  

Thanks for all that; first one important point is that the uploads
will be bigger anyway because we now return the full results.
This is great because it provides full functionality for the
physicist and should also help me track any remaining floating-point
differences. This all needs to be quantified. I can now vary
the length of each WU but I am not sure how to mix different lengths
in the same study. Anyway I am listening and testing. Eric.


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Message 26132 - Posted: 19 Jan 2014, 16:00:25 UTC - in response to Message 26126.  

VMs don't help me with floating-point determinism...might even
make it worse. While they would simplify my life, they will not
help me achieve my goal of complete portability, PCs, ARM,
different compilers, different levels of optimisation etc. Clearly it
is more efficient to run native and easier, I hope, for you. Eric.
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Message 26133 - Posted: 20 Jan 2014, 9:25:48 UTC - in response to Message 26132.  

Welcome back Eric
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Message 26134 - Posted: 21 Jan 2014, 4:18:20 UTC

henry, maybe you misunderstood me or maybe I was misunderstanding you. I was merely pointing out that many contributors don't have VB installed at all. Thus, they would NEED to download and install it. Not everyone updates clients unless there is a need. Those who download a client has the choice to download the version that comes with VB now and so would be less of an issue for those who choose it. That was basically my point. As far as add-ons like the extensions you mentioned, that is something entirely different.
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Message 26139 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 0:05:12 UTC - in response to Message 26134.  
Last modified: 22 Jan 2014, 0:12:23 UTC

Is that a problem? Why? Because some would not update BOINC and get the VM and they'd flounce out in a hissy fit? So what? Who cares if 100 stumblebums quit because they're too stupid to get a VM installed? The fact is there are far more people seeking Sixtrack work than there is Sixtrack work available. The project could shed 200 stumblebums and be no worse off.

Honestly I don't see your point unless your purpose is to take the smallest mole hill and make the biggest possible mountain out of it just to preserve some holy status quo. Face the future... more and more projects are going to start using a VM for obvious reasons (1 app runs on all platforms) so get with it or get left behind.
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Message 26144 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 15:01:21 UTC

1/22/2014 6:38:22 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | Server can't open log file (../log_boinc05/scheduler.log)
1/22/2014 6:38:27 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | work fetch resumed by user
1/22/2014 6:38:36 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | project suspended by user
1/22/2014 6:38:39 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | project resumed by user
1/22/2014 6:38:41 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | update requested by user
1/22/2014 6:38:42 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | Sending scheduler request: Requested by user.
1/22/2014 6:38:42 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | Requesting new tasks for CPU and NVIDIA
1/22/2014 6:38:44 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | Scheduler request completed: got 0 new tasks
1/22/2014 6:38:44 AM | LHC@home 1.0 | Server can't open log file (../log_boinc05/scheduler.log)


What is going on here!!!? Pick

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Message 26149 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 18:05:32 UTC - in response to Message 26144.  

Well, Pick, I'll tell you what's going on. In fact I'll even tell you what went on. You spotted the last thread someone posted to, ignored the topic and posted your off-topic post here in this thread. That's what went non (past tense). Now what's going on (present tense) is that everybody reading your message is shaking their heads and rolling their eyes and saying, "Pick, Pick, Pick, sick, sick, sick."

If you have something to say please find a thread with an appropriate topic in which to post your message or start a new thread. I'm quite sure you've heard that advice already, possibly directed to some other rude poster, possibly directed to yourself, so why can you not follow it? Do you not understand the concept of topics? Or are you just an inconsiderate stumblebum? Which is it, Pick?

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Message 26151 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 19:50:51 UTC - in response to Message 26149.  

DOLT

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Message 26157 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 22:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 26139.  

Is that a problem? Why? Because some would not update BOINC and get the VM and they'd flounce out in a hissy fit? So what? Who cares if 100 stumblebums quit because they're too stupid to get a VM installed? The fact is there are far more people seeking Sixtrack work than there is Sixtrack work available. The project could shed 200 stumblebums and be no worse off.

Honestly I don't see your point unless your purpose is to take the smallest mole hill and make the biggest possible mountain out of it just to preserve some holy status quo. Face the future... more and more projects are going to start using a VM for obvious reasons (1 app runs on all platforms) so get with it or get left behind.


Panties in a bunch today? You make a lot of implications that weren't brought up by myself. Nor do your rude comments change the facts presented above. If you don't like people pointing out your fallacies, then don't post. I for one don't care if they want to run VB or not. I have it installed and will be ready if it is used here. That doesn't change what YOU said and how YOU were incorrect about requiring people to install extras. Virtualbox is an extra. So, please don't respond with more BS.
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Message 26158 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 23:32:05 UTC - in response to Message 26157.  

Yah, my panties are all bunched up in yer mouth.

I don't think I posted any fallacies. Please quote them if you disagree.

I never said people wouldn't have to install something to get VB, I simply said it would be an easy install because BOINC would do it for them and any configuring required after the installation would be handled for them by the VM image issued by the project and automatically downloaded by BOINC. Are those the facts you think are BS?

Nor did I make any implications. I simply asked some questions. Same as you implying I'm angry (panties in a bunch?) when I'm not via your question. The fact you're yelling indicates you're the angry one and I can only assume you're angry because you don't like the answers to the questions I asked.

6 bangers are for wussies.
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Message 26159 - Posted: 22 Jan 2014, 23:39:13 UTC - in response to Message 26151.  

DOLT


Ahh, you're a dolt. That's what I figured.

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Message 26178 - Posted: 23 Jan 2014, 23:00:36 UTC - in response to Message 26118.  

VMs are additional overhead, extra installation and hence extra dependencies, and a bloody stupid idea.



Extra installation by the user is no longer required. The BOINC installer does it for you on Windows.





Simply put, Virtualbox is an additional installation for many. You seem to IMPLY that BOINC does this automatically. This is only true if you downloaded the optional BOINC installer that has VB included. So, yes it is still an additional installation for most users. And I even clarified that above. You keep ignoring that part.

So, fallacy one is that you wont need to install additional software. Fallacy two is that BOINC does it all for you. It doesn't. The user still has the choice even when running the download that has VB included.

Your implications were in the questions and how you presented them. Don't act like you were innocent of that. Attacking posters unnecessarily certainly implied that you had some issues going on. (panties in a bunch is a pretty common term for you behavior.)

Yelling is usually distinguished in text by using all caps. I did no such thing. Since some people forget that, I wont label it a fallacy.

I didn't ask any questions that got negative answers. So, there is fallacy number three.
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Message 26180 - Posted: 24 Jan 2014, 0:18:06 UTC - in response to Message 26178.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2014, 0:23:08 UTC

VMs are additional overhead, extra installation and hence extra dependencies, and a bloody stupid idea.



Extra installation by the user is no longer required. The BOINC installer does it for you on Windows.





Simply put, Virtualbox is an additional installation for many. You seem to IMPLY that BOINC does this automatically. This is only true if you downloaded the optional BOINC installer that has VB included.


Well then you admit it's an automatic install. All you have to do is download the right BOINC installer. What is so difficult about that? What would it take for you to quit quibbling over nothing? You need BOINC to read your mind and download itself and install itself? How much hand holding do you need?

So, yes it is still an additional installation for most users. And I even clarified that above. You keep ignoring that part.


I've ignored nothing. You keep ignoring the fact you're breaking a sweat over details so insignificant they don't apply to anyone except blind people who have had their fingers amputated and can't see the screen or operate a mouse. Take a Valium and relax before your brain explodes over nothing. And I bet I'm not the first one in your life to tell you that.

So, fallacy one is that you wont need to install additional software. Fallacy two is that BOINC does it all for you. It doesn't. The user still has the choice even when running the download that has VB included.


So if I you're a user and you want VB so you can run a BOINC project that needs a VM and I tell you it's automatic you're going to come back to me whining like a baby because BOINC didn't download itself and install VB for you. Whatever dude, there is no way to argue with "logic" like that.

Your implications were in the questions and how you presented them. Don't act like you were innocent of that. Attacking posters unnecessarily certainly implied that you had some issues going on. (panties in a bunch is a pretty common term for you behavior.)


If there were implications in my questions then there were implications in yours as well and don't pretend there were not. The only attack that was unnecessary was your pedantic rant over nothing.

Yelling is usually distinguished in text by using all caps. I did no such thing.


Wrong. Your previous post has at least 2 words in all caps and don't pretend you used caps just for emphasis. You can emphasize with italics or bold here or even enclose text in asterisks or underline characters.


I didn't ask any questions that got negative answers. So, there is fallacy number three.


Read it again. I asked the questions that you didn't like the answers to. Because the only answer for why you're making such mountains out of insignificant little mole holes is that you're either nuts or you can't stand to see anything change.

Now if you're done licking the skid marks out of my panties please launder them and put them back on my clothes line where you found them. Did you enjoy these last ones as much as the ones you took last month (I noticed you chewed the crotch right out of those, you bad boy)?
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Message 26181 - Posted: 24 Jan 2014, 0:46:43 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jan 2014, 1:28:48 UTC

I all caps one word not two and yes it was for emphasis. BOINC is actually in all caps as it should be and VB is typically abbreviated that way when in discussions as well. But that is easy to desperately reach for.

Please stop acting like I'm asking questions and then justifying them by using your questions. I believe the only question I gave was whether your panties were in a bunch.

The users don't currently have to have VB here and so don't meet your example. In the future that might be the case, but you state not needing to install it because BOINC does it for you. Your words. BOINC can come packaged with it and still asks the user if they want it (I verified the process a littler earlier just to make sure). It does not automatically do this for you. Technicality? Maybe so but less technically inclined people that read your statements can very easily misunderstand. Logically if they installed BOINC for this project and the project required it, I would agree it is pretty wise to allow it to go ahead and install as well as choosing the BOINC version that comes with it. However, the previous poster had concerns with not wanting additional software. That is the issue. Not the simplicity of the installation. If it is better over all for the project, I support the idea of VB. That doesn't mean your statements are true and factual.

So for those that have read through the banter, keep in mind that BOINC does not automatically install other programs at this time. And as far as I know there are only 3 projects (not this one) that utilize it in their apps. Perhaps in the future.
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Message 26182 - Posted: 24 Jan 2014, 4:40:16 UTC - in response to Message 26181.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2014, 4:41:16 UTC

I all caps one word not two and yes it was for emphasis. BOINC is actually in all caps as it should be and VB is typically abbreviated that way when in discussions as well. But that is easy to desperately reach for.


BOINC and VB are not the words I was referring to and you know it so stop pretending you didn't yell. Look back to your message #26139 where you posted:

That doesn't change what YOU said and how YOU...


That's 2 words, liar, and you don't need to yell for emphasis. Now are you done with that or do you feel like lieing some more in some futile attempt to get out of the first lie and the denial.

Please stop acting like I'm asking questions and then justifying them by using your questions.


Huh? I didn't say you asked questions as in more than 1 question. I said I asked questions and I also said I thought the fact that you were yelling was proof that you didn't like the obvious answers to my questions. Why are you so easily confused over events that happened so recently and are recorded here for all to see and review? Are you on crack or maybe meth or something? Are you FAS?

I believe the only question I gave was whether your panties were in a bunch.


Right! And now that we know you do the same thing you tell me I cannot do (ask questions with implications aka rhetorical questions) we'll move on the the last point.

The users don't currently have to have VB here and so don't meet your example. In the future that might be the case, but you state not needing to install it because BOINC does it for you. Your words. BOINC can come packaged with it and still asks the user if they want it (I verified the process a littler earlier just to make sure). It does not automatically do this for you. Technicality? Maybe so but less technically inclined people that read your statements can very easily misunderstand.


And so what if they do? What is the worst that could happen if they misunderstand? Their computer isn't going to blow up. Their dog isn't going to die. Their boss isn't going to call them into the office next day and fire them because they misunderstood. Get a grip, man! You're all wound up over nothing.

Logically if they installed BOINC for this project and the project required it, I would agree it is pretty wise to allow it to go ahead and install as well as choosing the BOINC version that comes with it. However, the previous poster had concerns with not wanting additional software. That is the issue. Not the simplicity of the installation.


Anybody who signs up for BOINC and then doesn't want additional software has one too many holes in his head. BOINC is all about projects installing a multitude of software on your disk and running it. What difference does 1 more software make? Say what? He only has a 10 GB disk? No problem, tell me who it is and I'll send him a barely used 320 GB disk I have kicking around looking for something to do. Or just tell him this is major league ball and if he can't keep up with the big dogs then he should go back to the minors.

If it is better over all for the project, I support the idea of VB. That doesn't mean your statements are true and factual.


To anyone but a pedantic ninny they're close enough.

BTW, your original position was that VB is a stupid idea. Now all of a sudden you're all for it if it helps. I'll take that as you saying "Uncle!" and leave you alone now unless you have yet another mole hill you think is a mountain.
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Message 26190 - Posted: 24 Jan 2014, 15:02:23 UTC - in response to Message 26182.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2014, 15:29:32 UTC

I all caps one word not two and yes it was for emphasis. BOINC is actually in all caps as it should be and VB is typically abbreviated that way when in discussions as well. But that is easy to desperately reach for.


BOINC and VB are not the words I was referring to and you know it so stop pretending you didn't yell. Look back to your message #26139 where you posted:

That doesn't change what YOU said and how YOU...


That's 2 words, liar, and you don't need to yell for emphasis. Now are you done with that or do you feel like lieing some more in some futile attempt to get out of the first lie and the denial.

Please stop acting like I'm asking questions and then justifying them by using your questions.


Huh? I didn't say you asked questions as in more than 1 question. I said I asked questions and I also said I thought the fact that you were yelling was proof that you didn't like the obvious answers to my questions. Why are you so easily confused over events that happened so recently and are recorded here for all to see and review? Are you on crack or maybe meth or something? Are you FAS?

I believe the only question I gave was whether your panties were in a bunch.


Right! And now that we know you do the same thing you tell me I cannot do (ask questions with implications aka rhetorical questions) we'll move on the the last point.

The users don't currently have to have VB here and so don't meet your example. In the future that might be the case, but you state not needing to install it because BOINC does it for you. Your words. BOINC can come packaged with it and still asks the user if they want it (I verified the process a littler earlier just to make sure). It does not automatically do this for you. Technicality? Maybe so but less technically inclined people that read your statements can very easily misunderstand.


And so what if they do? What is the worst that could happen if they misunderstand? Their computer isn't going to blow up. Their dog isn't going to die. Their boss isn't going to call them into the office next day and fire them because they misunderstood. Get a grip, man! You're all wound up over nothing.

Logically if they installed BOINC for this project and the project required it, I would agree it is pretty wise to allow it to go ahead and install as well as choosing the BOINC version that comes with it. However, the previous poster had concerns with not wanting additional software. That is the issue. Not the simplicity of the installation.


Anybody who signs up for BOINC and then doesn't want additional software has one too many holes in his head. BOINC is all about projects installing a multitude of software on your disk and running it. What difference does 1 more software make? Say what? He only has a 10 GB disk? No problem, tell me who it is and I'll send him a barely used 320 GB disk I have kicking around looking for something to do. Or just tell him this is major league ball and if he can't keep up with the big dogs then he should go back to the minors.

If it is better over all for the project, I support the idea of VB. That doesn't mean your statements are true and factual.


To anyone but a pedantic ninny they're close enough.

BTW, your original position was that VB is a stupid idea. Now all of a sudden you're all for it if it helps. I'll take that as you saying "Uncle!" and leave you alone now unless you have yet another mole hill you think is a mountain.


I believe #26139 was your post, but I see the one other word that was capitalized twice in the post you are referencing. Touche on finding another trivial emphasis that typically doesn't mean shouting even though it is in all caps. Shouting usually involves more words being capitalized in succession but you know that already. But you are technically correct that italics or underlining would probably have been more appropriate there.

I would like you to quote where I said VB is a stupid idea? I have a preference but I don't recall ever stating it as a stupid idea. I don't even see where it was implied by one of my statements.
Edit: I also don't see where I made any opinion on whether it should or should not be used prior to post 26181. Even that post didn't address my feelings on whether it should or shouldn't but rather that I would use it. Even post 26257 didn't address my feelings on the project using it. I even stated that I was prepared if it did.


I also don't see apps being installed by BOINC as you say. What project is installing software? They download files and run them, but I don't see them being installed. This is a huge security concern if they are. Not all programs require installation. Or are you using the term installation very loosely? I'm assuming the latter.


Where did I say you couldn't ask questions with implications? I may have stated that you were doing it. But I don't recall saying you couldn't. However, if there was a question or statement with implications and I replied stating that there was no such thing stated, that is not saying you can't ask those questions. It is also the same if I just point out that you are doing it. That is just clarification. I never said that I wouldn't ever imply anything in one of my comments.
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