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T.J.

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Message 23321 - Posted: 2 Oct 2011, 21:49:07 UTC
Last modified: 2 Oct 2011, 21:50:27 UTC

Well Dave Anderson is only the programmer of BOINC. It is to the use of science not of credit-war. Univeristies can also use their own project out of BOINC. And yes these projects are already a live with a lot of voluntairy crunchers.
And that is it al about, about volunteers to crunch for science. With the credits you can see how your contribution is to the project. No more you can't do anything with them. So way to bother and make a long threat of it. This is my last one and I agree with zombie67.
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Message 23322 - Posted: 2 Oct 2011, 22:59:18 UTC - in response to Message 23321.  

Well Dave Anderson is only the programmer of BOINC.


Right. And Barak Obama is only the president of the United States. Steve Jobs was only the head guy at Apple.

It is to the use of science not of credit-war.


Right. And since rogue projects like Milkyway have turned it into a credit-war between projects they should be booted out of the community.

Univeristies can also use their own project out of BOINC.


Right. They can write their own distributed computing platform or use some platform other than BOINC. I strongly encourage Milkyway to do so.


And yes these projects are already a live with a lot of voluntairy crunchers.


Right. And if Milkyway were to be booted out of BOINC they would lose a lot of crunchers. Would they gain crunchers back if they adopted a different DC platform? Who cares?

And that is it al about, about volunteers to crunch for science. With the credits you can see how your contribution is to the project. No more you can't do anything with them. So way to bother and make a long threat of it.


Some crunchers think it is about more than just crunching for science. They think it is about collecting credits. Rogue projects cater to those credit whores by doling out excessive credits. They steal those crunchers away from other projects. Something has to be done to change the attitudes of rogue projects or just get rid of them.

This is my last one and I agree with zombie67.


Agree with zombie67 if you like but his statement is true only to the extent that the central authority so far has not exercised its authority. If he choses to exercise it there is a lot he can do to make projects bend to his will if they want to remain in the BOINC community. I believe most BOINC projects would welcome that.
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ChinookFoehn

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Message 23323 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 0:00:39 UTC - in response to Message 23318.  

Booted from the BOINC community. ... There IS a central authority named Dave Anderson and he can do whatever he wants too, within the limits of the law, of course. Dave is under no obligation to let anyone use BOINC...


I doubt he can do anything he wants as, no doubt, the University of California owns all rights to BOINC.

As for what you propose... How objectionable. Destroy valuable scientific research because you take objection to the way these moronic credit schemes are implemented?

Are you really proposing such scientific fascism in the name of preserving these idiotic credits?

-ChinookFöhn

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Message 23324 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 0:31:29 UTC - in response to Message 23318.  

Booted from the BOINC community. Stats sites could possibly be convinced to not import their stats, just for a start. There IS a central authority named Dave Anderson and he can do whatever he wants too, within the limits of the law, of course. Dave is under no obligation to let anyone use BOINC. He can make use of BOINC contingent upon any condition he wants including the condition that they issue credits in a decent, responsible fashion. He isn't obligated to distribute it as open source. He can distribute it as closed source and build into the executable a function that contacts his server and sends an encrypted request for permission to continue. If he/software elected to not respond with a 'yes' then the project would be effectively suspended. Reasonable projects will agree, in a EULA, to that condition and the consequences of not complying. Existing projects that don't agree to the EULA won't get vital upgrades. Existing projects that agree to the EULA will export encrypted stats. Stats sites will be given a binary (closed source) that decrypts those stats and requests permission to do so. If Dave refuses permission they can't decrypt/import stats.

Legal implications? I don't think any of the stats sites has money to contest such a scheme. If a project is funded/hosted by a university or research institute then the project has to ask them for permission and funds to pursue litigation. That'll fly like a manhole cover when the governing authority at said institution learns that all the project has to do to not be suspended is give out reasonable credits.

I'm describing a possible scenario here. I am not saying this is going to happen or even that I have heard it might happen. I believe that the above scenario does not agree with Dave A's current philosophy but since some projects don't use BOINC the way Dave intends I can easily see Dave changing his philosophy and punting rogue projects off the playing field. It can't happen soon enough, IMHO, so I will be shopping my proposal around to all the projects and to Dave.


Anyone can take BOINC and do anything they like with it, so long as they don't violate the terms of the license. DA has no authority or ability to do most of what you talk about above, with the current implementation of BOINC. Peer pressure is about all he can do.

I wonder what conditions the US government placed on the BOINC development grants. There may be requirements that it is open source, available to all. If he changed BOINC to be proprietary, he may lose those funds. They probably expect the product to be available to all, upon completion, without relying on DA to hang around and maintain it (and some sort of "home" server) indefinitely. But that is just guessing on my part. Also, I doubt many research organizations would ever adopt a proprietary implementation of BOINC. After all, what would happen to their project if DA decided to retire/got hit by a bus/whatever, and was no longer around.
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Message 23325 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 1:35:39 UTC - in response to Message 23323.  

Booted from the BOINC community. ... There IS a central authority named Dave Anderson and he can do whatever he wants too, within the limits of the law, of course. Dave is under no obligation to let anyone use BOINC...


I doubt he can do anything he wants as, no doubt, the University of California owns all rights to BOINC.

As for what you propose... How objectionable. Destroy valuable scientific research because you take objection to the way these moronic credit schemes are implemented?

Are you really proposing such scientific fascism in the name of preserving these idiotic credits?

-ChinookFöhn



You're probably right, he can't do just anything. However, if he explained to U of C how rogue projects are abusing BOINC, U of C might be sympathetic to the kind of changes I propose.

You may think what I propose is objectionable and I admit that I don't like such tactics either but I find what Milkyway and other projects are doing is even more objectionable. I have no objection to the way these moronic credit schemes are implemented. I object to the way Milkyway and others buy crunchers with credits. If Milkyway's research were to be destroyed that would be their own fault. They would have the option of using old BOINC server software, adopting a different DC platform or creating their own DC platform or just throwing in the towel. And since the mechanisms I've proposed aren't in place yet, I'm sure they would be allowed to remain in the BOINC community if they decided to play nice. But if they refuse to play nice then out they should go and the loss of research will be their fault.

Sorry to hear you think I'm a fascist. I'll make you deal... I'll try to be less fascist if Milkyway tries to be less of a douche bag.
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Message 23326 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 1:59:29 UTC - in response to Message 23324.  

Anyone can take BOINC and do anything they like with it, so long as they don't violate the terms of the license.


True but the license can be changed for new versions.

DA has no authority or ability to do most of what you talk about above, with the current implementation of BOINC. Peer pressure is about all he can do.


I think if he doesn't have the authority he can get the authority. He can't do what I propose with current implementation of server and client but what I propose could easily be built into upcoming versions.

I wonder what conditions the US government placed on the BOINC development grants. There may be requirements that it is open source, available to all. If he changed BOINC to be proprietary, he may lose those funds.


Perhaps, perhaps not. I think if he explained to whoever funds BOINC that he wants to implement changes to stop abuse of the product and that some parts of it need to be proprietary to enforce that, I can't see why the funders would object. To object would be to condone abuse.

Also, I doubt many research organizations would ever adopt a proprietary implementation of BOINC. After all, what would happen to their project if DA decided to retire/got hit by a bus/whatever, and was no longer around.


The same thing that would happen if the source remained open. Someone would "inherit" the source code and continue. Possibly Rom Walton, possibly someone else in the same department at U of C, possibly me.
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ChinookFoehn

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Message 23327 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 2:09:37 UTC - in response to Message 23325.  

You're probably right, he can't do just anything. However, if he explained to U of C how rogue projects are abusing BOINC, U of C might be sympathetic to the kind of changes I propose.

What abuse? There is no abuse as credits are meaningless.

You may think what I propose is objectionable and I admit that I don't like such tactics either but I find what Milkyway and other projects are doing is even more objectionable.

Who cares if they give out hundreds of times of credits than another project to attract computers to do their research - other than you and other members of, what do they now call it in other fora, the credit police (or worse)?

I have no objection to the way these moronic credit schemes are implemented.

Of course you do as that is all you complain about.

I object to the way Milkyway and others buy crunchers with credits.

Let them as if this helps get their research done more quickly, then other projects should be doing the same. More power to Milkyway for caring about their research and manipulating the credit scheme to achieve their goals.

If Milkyway's research were to be destroyed that would be their own fault.

You're a pretty vindictive person aren't you? But then, so are most of the Credit Police.

They would have the option of using old BOINC server software, adopting a different DC platform or creating their own DC platform or just throwing in the towel. And since the mechanisms I've proposed aren't in place yet, I'm sure they would be allowed to remain in the BOINC community if they decided to play nice. But if they refuse to play nice then out they should go and the loss of research will be their fault.

Not the BOINC Community but yourself and all the other totalitarians who spout the same tripe.

Sorry to hear you think I'm a fascist. I'll make you deal... I'll try to be less fascist if Milkyway tries to be less of a douche bag.

Such an eloquent writing style.

As with others of your ilk, there is no communicating with people, like yourself, who shun logic in favour of fanaticism.

-ChinookFöhn

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Message 23329 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 4:05:27 UTC - in response to Message 23327.  
Last modified: 3 Oct 2011, 4:18:39 UTC

You're probably right, he can't do just anything. However, if he explained to U of C how rogue projects are abusing BOINC, U of C might be sympathetic to the kind of changes I propose.

What abuse? There is no abuse as credits are meaningless.


Milkyway and other roque projects have discovered that a lot of crunchers think credits are valuable. They use big credit payouts to steal crunchers away from other projects. That's not at all what credits were invented for and it's abusive use of credits and an insult to other projects.

If they aren't buying crunchers and if nobody places any value on credits then nobody has any cause to complain if Milkyway is brought into line.

You may think what I propose is objectionable and I admit that I don't like such tactics either but I find what Milkyway and other projects are doing is even more objectionable.

Who cares if they give out hundreds of times of credits than another project to attract computers to do their research - other than you and other members of, what do they now call it in other fora, the credit police (or worse)?


I believe the correct term is kredit kop. Whatever. It's not just me and other kredit kops it's other project admins too. You and me and the other crunchers aren't the only ones with a stake in this issue.

I have no objection to the way these moronic credit schemes are implemented.

Of course you do as that is all you complain about.


You're wrong but I'm not going to argue that point.

I object to the way Milkyway and others buy crunchers with credits.

Let them as if this helps get their research done more quickly, then other projects should be doing the same. More power to Milkyway for caring about their research and manipulating the credit scheme to achieve their goals.


That's very shortsighted. If other projects stoop to the same level then Milkyway will raise their credits. That will be followed by other projects raising theirs, and so on. Nobody, least of all the project admins, wants that to happen. All it does is undercut the value of credits.

If Milkyway's research were to be destroyed that would be their own fault.

You're a pretty vindictive person aren't you? But then, so are most of the Credit Police.


It's kredit kops and how does Milkyway flushing their project down the toilet make me vindictive? Wouldn't that just make them silly? I just want to see a level playing field for all projects. That's not vindictive. That's what's called being considerate of other's needs too.

They would have the option of using old BOINC server software, adopting a different DC platform or creating their own DC platform or just throwing in the towel. And since the mechanisms I've proposed aren't in place yet, I'm sure they would be allowed to remain in the BOINC community if they decided to play nice. But if they refuse to play nice then out they should go and the loss of research will be their fault.

Not the BOINC Community but yourself and all the other totalitarians who spout the same tripe.


Consideration for the good of all the projects is totalitarian? I don't think so but YMMV.

Sorry to hear you think I'm a fascist. I'll make you deal... I'll try to be less fascist if Milkyway tries to be less of a douche bag.

Such an eloquent writing style.


Thank you! I consider that a compliment and tell you sincerely that I believe my eloquence is exceeded only by your own.

As with others of your ilk, there is no communicating with people, like yourself, who shun logic in favour of fanaticism.

-ChinookFöhn


Oh, now I see. It's logic you value. Suppose you explain to us all why allowing a few rogue projects to buy crunchers with credits is logical or beneficial to the community. Tell us why a credit war between projects is logical or beneficial? Tell us why a level playing field for all projects is fanatical. Hmmm?
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Message 23330 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 5:39:31 UTC

^ ^ ^

That is the banished "Dagorath" in case you didn't already know.



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ChinookFoehn

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Message 23332 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 13:12:42 UTC - in response to Message 23329.  

Oh, now I see. It's logic you value. Suppose you explain to us all why allowing a few rogue projects to buy crunchers with credits is logical or beneficial to the community. Tell us why a credit war between projects is logical or beneficial? Tell us why a level playing field for all projects is fanatical. Hmmm?

As credits are meaningless, there are no rogue projects, as you put it. There is no credit war. If Milkyway and other projects attract the computers they need for having their research done by providing what you and other Credit Police consider excessive, power to them. As credits are meaningless their issued credits are also meaningless. Logical.

Who cares anyway except people like you who aren't really interested in science but more in retribution. Why do Credit Policemen like you continuously harp about a level playing field? So you can show the world your vindictiveness? In every project, all you Credit Police just show the world what a bunch of, sour-grape, totalitarian extremists your are by wanting to impose your draconian rules and run the projects your way - for moronic credits and not the science. Don't follow the your idiotic credit rules, then throw a project out as their science then has no value because your credits are more important than any science accomplished.

As per usual any discussion with credit fanatics is a wasted effort. I only hope more projects do as Milkyway, thereby attracting more computers to do their science more quickly for them, as well as generating more apoplectic rantings from the Corp of the Credit Police which can provide more amusement for us at their posted rantings.

I wish you well and hope you don't end up frothing at the mouth in your anger when the next project so affronts you at daring to violate your Credit Issuing Law of Retribution.

-ChinookFöhn
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Message 23334 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 18:27:35 UTC - in response to Message 23332.  

As credits are meaningless, there are no rogue projects, as you put it. There is no credit war. If Milkyway and other projects attract the computers they need for having their research done by providing what you and other Credit Police consider excessive, power to them. As credits are meaningless their issued credits are also meaningless. Logical.


Not logical. Not even factual. You and I might think credits are meaningless but other crunchers do not. Milkyway uses their desire for credits to attract them to Milkyway. There is no other reason for giving excessive credits. That goes against the spirit in which BOINC was created which is that projects should attract crunchers based on their scientific appeal/merit. Projects that use credits to attract crunchers are therefore rogue projects. If there is no credit war then it's only because other projects have shown restraint and haven't stooped as low as Milkyway.

Who cares anyway except people like you who aren't really interested in science but more in retribution.


Other project admins care and other crunchers care too. And I've already explained to you that I am not interested in retribution. Your statement is thus non-factual in 2 ways so it certainly cannot be logical.

Why do Credit Policemen like you continuously harp about a level playing field?


So that no project has an advantage, other than scientific appeal to crunchers, over any other project when it comes to attracting crunchers. That's the spirit in which Dave Anderson created BOINC and that's the spirit I believe he will preserve and enforce.

So you can show the world your vindictiveness? In every project, all you Credit Police just show the world what a bunch of, sour-grape, totalitarian extremists your are by wanting to impose your draconian rules and run the projects your way - for moronic credits and not the science. Don't follow the your idiotic credit rules, then throw a project out as their science then has no value because your credits are more important than any science accomplished.


Ad hominem attacks like that prove nothing other than the fact that you can't stick to facts. There is not one fact in the above tirade. It's all a figment of your imagination.

As per usual any discussion with credit fanatics is a wasted effort. I only hope more projects do as Milkyway, thereby attracting more computers to do their science more quickly for them


You've just proposed a credit war. That really helps your position.

, as well as generating more apoplectic rantings from the Corp of the Credit Police which can provide more amusement for us at their posted rantings.


It seems to me the only amusing apoplectic rants in this thread are your own. Please try to stick to the facts.

I wish you well and hope you don't end up frothing at the mouth in your anger when the next project so affronts you at daring to violate your Credit Issuing Law of Retribution.

-ChinookFöhn


Thank you!
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Message 23335 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 21:05:26 UTC

ChinookFoehn,

As I mentioned before jujube is the banished "Dagorath" and this is his 2nd boinc site to get this not so real banishment from.

He hasn't changed at all and will try to get you to say something to get you banished too.

Don't bother reading his comments towards you and just update your account so you don't even have to see what trash he has to say here or any other boinc site.

He has been known to follow members around who have 10 times his credits to see if he can get them banished too.

As you can see getting "banished" didn't stop him from just making a new ID and testing it out before he cheated with his credits on another boinc site he was banished from and faked like he was helping the project by seeing how many times he could get away with doing that.

Many members know about this guy from Canada who will make comments about you and where you live trying to get you to do the same.

Ignore the ____



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Message 23336 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 21:21:43 UTC - in response to Message 23335.  

ChinookFoehn,

As I mentioned before jujube is the banished "Dagorath" and this is his 2nd boinc site to get this not so real banishment from.

He hasn't changed at all and will try to get you to say something to get you banished too.

...

As you can see getting "banished" didn't stop him from just making a new ID and testing it out before he cheated with his credits on another boinc site he was banished from and faked like he was helping the project by seeing how many times he could get away with doing that.

Many members know about this guy from Canada who will make comments about you and where you live trying to get you to do the same.

Ignore the ____

Interesting. I gave up following threads in most of the fora, in most of the projects, years ago and only look at them when I have problems - such as the need to disconnect and reconnect.

I didn't realise so many of these types of people were still permitted to post the same tripe they were posting when BOINC first started out. I thought that was why moderators were, finally, appointed so as to control this and remove offending posts from thread.

Things haven't changed much other than the intense profanity previously used by these types seems to have been banned.

Thanks for the advice. Can't say Dagorath is known to me. If he was, I've forgotten about him as I soon will forget this jujube.

To any moderator: You may remove my comments to this jujube if you also remove his original posts. It would help clear up the thread.

-ChinookFöhn

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Message 23337 - Posted: 3 Oct 2011, 23:22:32 UTC

Hmm, credits. Does LHC grant too low compared to other projects? Yes. Does LHC grant too much compared to other projects? Yes.

An astropulse for Seti running approximately 18hrs gets me 700-800 credits. A sixtrack running about 13hrs gets me just over 100 credits. A WCG task running for 15hrs gets me just under 50 credits. Is this fair? Should I get less for Seti and more for WCG to even things out? To be honest, I'm not bothered in the least.

The important thing for me is that the science gets done. Credits, and the resultant bragging stats that gets people so worked up and all that nonsense is, to me, irrelevant.
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Message 23338 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 2:10:42 UTC - in response to Message 23335.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2011, 2:11:32 UTC

ChinookFoehn,

As I mentioned before jujube is the banished "Dagorath" and this is his 2nd boinc site to get this not so real banishment from.

He hasn't changed at all and will try to get you to say something to get you banished too.

Don't bother reading his comments towards you and just update your account so you don't even have to see what trash he has to say here or any other boinc site.

He has been known to follow members around who have 10 times his credits to see if he can get them banished too.

As you can see getting "banished" didn't stop him from just making a new ID and testing it out before he cheated with his credits on another boinc site he was banished from and faked like he was helping the project by seeing how many times he could get away with doing that.

Many members know about this guy from Canada who will make comments about you and where you live trying to get you to do the same.

Ignore the ____


You joined today, you haven't crunched a task at any project, you don't have a computer attached to this project yet you claim to know all about Dagorath and his history at other projects. You're obviously a sockpuppet and you're here to condemn me for being a sockpuppet with not one shred of evidence to support your claim. Absolutely brilliant! I would ask the moderator to hide your off topic post but I would rather it stay so that all can behold your brilliance.
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Message 23339 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 3:34:06 UTC
Last modified: 4 Oct 2011, 3:48:42 UTC

This is obviously a dangerous subject. I hope I don't get banned for posting, or for laughing at some of the posts.

I am a noob at BOINCing, just 6 weeks at work. The credits have two values to me: psychological so I can see how I am doing, and descriptive so I can compare projects. So if I spend equal amounts of time at LHC and MilkyWay, but get vastly different amounts of credit, I tend to wonder if one project is better than the other, or if my computer is somehow not as good at one as the other. Either way, the psychological effect is that I want to do the project that gives higher credit first.

Now I must consider all these arguments. Fine. I will continue to try to give equal time to each project, will still be happy when I receive credits, and have now started to covet a GPU.
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Message 23340 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 11:02:54 UTC - in response to Message 23339.  

Hello Kathryn welcome to BOINC.

MilkyWay is not giving that much credit, unless crunching with an expensive graphics card. For MilkyWay you can use ATI or nVidia (they are currently the only one with both).
Conjuncture and DECTnet are the ones with the most credit per second, but also on GPU.
Einstein@home gives a nice amount of credits for CPU and nVidia-GPU.
I run some physics and some medicine projects.

And indead some posts are very ridiculous. Luckaly nobody can forbid you to laugh.

Happy crunching!
Greetings from,
TJ
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Message 23341 - Posted: 4 Oct 2011, 13:24:49 UTC - in response to Message 23323.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2011, 13:27:41 UTC

I doubt he can do anything he wants as, no doubt, the University of California owns all rights to BOINC.

BOINC is free software, distributed under the Lesser General Public License (LGPL), version 3 or later. The University of California holds the copyright on all BOINC source code. By submitting contributions to the BOINC code, you irrevocably assign all right, title, and interest, including copyright and all copyright rights, in such contributions to The Regents of the University of California, who may then use the code for any purpose that it desires.

I wonder what conditions the US government placed on the BOINC development grants. There may be requirements that it is open source, available to all. If he changed BOINC to be proprietary, he may lose those funds.

BOINC is supported by the National Science Foundation through awards SCI-0221529, SCI-0438443, SCI-0506411, PHY/0555655, and OCI-0721124. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the National Science Foundation.

SCI-0221529: http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0221529
SCI-0438443: http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0438443
SCI-0506411: http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0506411&version=noscript
PHY/0555655: http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0555655&version=noscript
OCI-0721124: http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0721124

Each grant shows what the expectations of the grant contain.
Jord

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Message 23403 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:03:00 UTC - in response to Message 23335.  

lOl. On which forum Dograth is on these days? years since my last encounter with that kook. :)
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Message 23404 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:14:37 UTC - in response to Message 23335.  

This Jujube is Dograth? Who murdered Tanpaku. Rich, should come more often and read the boards. Dograth, you are a pest of the first water. Ok! Now that i know you are here, i will of course be following your epic antics buddy.
Guys dont mind him take it from one who has been following around for ages, every court requires a jester. Just play with him, thats the only way to control him. The more you play the more he hops, try it and see. Enjoy yourselves.
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