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Message 21925 - Posted: 4 Mar 2010, 12:21:12 UTC

1) The LHC is back up and running you can follow its progress on the CERN twitter feed @CERN or the @lhcstatus feed. The latter is actually a scrape of the screens that the physicists watch to monitor the LHC machine.

2) LHC@home is also back. After a long quiet period we have new studies to work on. The executable has been updated (which is why there is not a Linux version available yet) and the project is now crunching simulations for the LHC upgrade. The team at CERN are working on the Linux executable and the team at QMUL are looking at the server code and are hoping to update that soon.

This is all I will say for the moment. However LHC@home is being used for beam studies from the LHC machine running actual data from the experiments is unlikely as the code has been written for the grid and the datasets are measured in 100s of gigabytes. We have been looking into other LHC uses for the project but it is not easy.
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Message 21931 - Posted: 4 Mar 2010, 14:08:01 UTC - in response to Message 21925.  

trying, but got some errors
was stopped @ 8,78 sec
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Message 21949 - Posted: 5 Mar 2010, 1:54:27 UTC - in response to Message 21925.  

What does this mean for volunteers who have been waiting a long time for new work? The announcement is not clear on this point.
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Message 21950 - Posted: 5 Mar 2010, 2:07:29 UTC - in response to Message 21949.  

What does this mean for volunteers who have been waiting a long time for new work? The announcement is not clear on this point.

Not sure what you mean.

LHC@home will be crunching simulation work for the upgrade of the LHC only.

Attach to the project and go into pot luck in getting a wu to crunch until full production runs occur, then there tends to be work for a week or 2 at a time.

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Message 21957 - Posted: 5 Mar 2010, 10:00:20 UTC - in response to Message 21949.  

What does this mean for volunteers who have been waiting a long time for new work? The announcement is not clear on this point.

I am unclear to your question as well.

The LHC@home project uses a programme called SixTrack. This models the beams within the LHC machine. The beam studies we are doing now are related to the upgrade of this machine in 2 years.

The project currently has no plan to run data coming from the 4(6) experiments that use the LHC machine. This is for twofold reasons:

1) The code is not portable, it is unwieldy and only runs on Scientific Linux CERN edition and some related platforms.

2) Each datasets is in the 100s of GigaBytes range transferring this and the results back and forth between us and you volunteers is just not feasible. Theoretically you guys could store an individual dataset however we would have to store them all which is 15PB of data each year.

There are investigations into getting further work but finding a suitable application, someone willing to port it (with ongoing support) and then finding someone to utilise it is proving difficult.

The team using SixTrack however have a big study coming up, this should run for a while and we hope to have a Linux version by then as well. They also think that they will be submitting studies more regularly now they are working on the upgrade.

I know we\'ve been quiet on here (except bigmac) but I have been scrabbling around trying to get us moving on new things and its not easy.
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Message 21961 - Posted: 5 Mar 2010, 16:22:54 UTC - in response to Message 21931.  

Ever since restart from LHC, after
downloading work is, file upload error
bytes missing.
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Profile Andrew Gorokhov

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Message 21979 - Posted: 6 Mar 2010, 9:41:45 UTC - in response to Message 21961.  

Ever since restart from LHC, after
downloading work is, file upload error
bytes missing.


Oh, now it\'s much better. Upload errors are rare.
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Message 21996 - Posted: 8 Mar 2010, 0:40:04 UTC - in response to Message 21957.  
Last modified: 8 Mar 2010, 0:40:29 UTC


I am unclear to your question as well.

The LHC@home project uses a programme called SixTrack. This models the beams within the LHC machine. The beam studies we are doing now are related to the upgrade of this machine in 2 years.

The project currently has no plan to run data coming from the 4(6) experiments that use the LHC machine. This is for twofold reasons:

1) The code is not portable, it is unwieldy and only runs on Scientific Linux CERN edition and some related platforms.

Ok that´s a reason. I know it is much work to write a programme, that have a good performance. But you have lot´s of people, that can writw programms. Also when you have a good algorit then you can take it normaly easy to another platform. I study in Heidelberg, and when i´am remeber write, then we have there a serverfarme. And this servers are nerly totaly normal PC´s.

2) Each datasets is in the 100s of GigaBytes range transferring this and the results back and forth between us and you volunteers is just not feasible. Theoretically you guys could store an individual dataset however we would have to store them all which is 15PB of data each year.

Ähm... do you realy think that´s right? When I remember right, then the MAXIMUM of datacollection of a project is about 1GB/s. Yes i know from the detector comes much more, but this dataset is filtered by hardware chips. Some of them are developed in Heidelberg.

Yes you need about 15PB to star ALL Datas per year. But not only for one project and 10 times not for one event. I think something of about some MB per event are realistic. Ok Let say you need a lot of detector parameters etc, but then you also just have a few GB. And this parameters are nearly constant.


Sorry, but for me it sounds a bit like a excuse. I study in Heidelberg and see the BW-Grid servers etc and know which hardware they have and whot not.

This servers always have a very fast network (myrinet or so) and they have often lot´s of ram. But this is a optimal setup to solve the problems.

I study physik, and so i think like in the history also today lot´s of cumputing power is need to solve the flith path of the particels. But just for such problems GPU´s should be VERY powerful.

Ok let´s stop here. All in all i can´t understand why you ignore the community. Alone when i think how much money you can save when you haven´t to buy a lot of Servers or pay for current/cooling.

When the CERN isn´t interested realy in our help, then just say it, but don´t say, that our hardware is to bad for the work!
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Message 22005 - Posted: 8 Mar 2010, 15:13:26 UTC - in response to Message 21996.  

But you have lot´s of people, that can writw programms.

LHC@home has one retired physicist (bigmac) that is our entire coding team.
The experiments have a few coders (not loads) but they are busy coding for their experiments and Grid. This is also about to take a hit due to the change in funding of the Grid.

Also when you have a good algorit then you can take it normaly easy to another platform.

Porting an algorithm is not porting an entire suite of applications written by numerous people over the last 10 years for a particular architecture and operating system.
This servers always have a very fast network (myrinet or so) and they have often lot´s of ram. But this is a optimal setup to solve the problems.

For optimal setup read \\\"currently the only way\\\". Firstly every academic institute is connected to GEANT, this is leagues ahead of the internet connection home users will have. However for some this isn\\\'t even enough and they have paid commercial providers for even better connections.
I study physik, and so i think like in the history also today lot´s of cumputing power is need to solve the flith path of the particels. But just for such problems GPU´s should be VERY powerful.

Yes they should however no one has coded LHC applications for GPUs. The emergence of GPUs is extremely recent in a community where Fortran is still used and building of the machine started 17 years ago.
Ok let´s stop here. All in all i can´t understand why you ignore the community. Alone when i think how much money you can save when you haven´t to buy a lot of Servers or pay for current/cooling. When the CERN isn´t interested realy in our help, then just say it, but don´t say, that our hardware is to bad for the work!

OK you, and a lot of people on here, seem to have the wrong end of the stick with this project. LHC@home is not at QMUL because it looked like a fun thing to do (although it did) CERN were about to withdraw all support of the project. This despite not actually providing much beyond a space in a rack for a server. This is fact. LHC@home would most likely have completely died had we not taken the server to QMUL.

Computing for the LHC experiments is being done and most likely will always be done by the grid which has been built for that purpose. Since I started with LHC@home I have been looking for some more applications that are LHC related for the project. Not one of the experiment reps I have talked to thinks that their code could be ported. I am still looking and am still hopeful that we can do something. However for the moment all we have is SixTrack with the upgrade work starting we might find some more machine applications we can run but as I have explained processing of data from the experiments with LHC@home is very unlikely.
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Message 22018 - Posted: 8 Mar 2010, 22:00:54 UTC
Last modified: 8 Mar 2010, 22:05:30 UTC

Isn´t it stuped as hell to ignore a platform like boinc? I mean, just look on Einstein@home oder so they have 200TFlops WITHOUT GPU support!

I´am a littel bit angry when i hear this. When CERN would save money for the Serverfarm, they could spend this money for other thinks like more stuff support or something like that. And i think there are great chances with GPU´s for the future.

My own next project is OpenCL. The only problem for me is atm, that i have Diplom assessments this and perhaps next year -.- So time is very limited.

But i see the problem too often, that the people don´t see the chances in BOINC etc. They are to much in the old fashion with big serverfarms etc... I can´t unterstand, why they disclaim this often? But perhaps i can talk with my Prof after the semesterbreak a littelbit about the servers for the LHC. Perhaps he was it with the PS3 ;) Lindenstruth is his name. Do you know him?
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Message 22020 - Posted: 9 Mar 2010, 0:56:32 UTC - in response to Message 22005.  


Yes they should however no one has coded LHC applications for GPUs. The emergence of GPUs is extremely recent in a community where Fortran is still used and building of the machine started 17 years ago.


Ok, but isn´t this conservative and unprogressive? I mean, CERN is THE place for since. They have there the chance to find new physik and have to find new ways and theories to explain it. And on the other hand they are so small-minded an just see fortran, because they allways work with fortrane. Ok ok Fortran is very performance, beacause you have lot´s of librarys etc that are highly optimiced. But is it impossibel to bring them to C++ or so?

I have a very interesting discussion with some staff in the university and they say: yes some especial the older ones just work with fortrane and thats it. They are not open for new things. I think that´s a big mistake.

Look on Einstein@home. Perhaps they perhaps have found the shortest timelength (that is much larger than expected). Without the help of Boinc this chance for realy new science wouldn´t be given, because they haven´t the resources for this without BOINC.

Especial CPU time is allways limited, no matter how much you have, you allways can find new thinks to solve, or just crunch with a higher resolution. Why is CERN just say no to free CPU time? Ok it would be lot´s of work to bring \"equal\" performance to a home PC than to a Server in a serverfarm, but you haven´t to pay for it! So who cares about performance realy? Ohhh bad boy, your programm on Boinc is 10 times slower then on my cool serverfarm... And? Who cares? You haven´t to pay for current etc. Every singel solution you get is more or less for free! How much do CERN spend every year for hardware and maintenance? 20 Mio Euro or more? Just if you can save 0.1%, than this is a lot.

There must be so much work to do, that can solve on a normal PC very easy. Just find the trace of the particels through the detector should be a significant part of the work or not? And you can solve every singel event totaly independent from the other events (i can´t imagine something that avoid parallel solving) . Please correct me when i am wrong.

Summing up i want to say, that when i read whot you write here, and think about it, then must say, that it is a shame that you have so littel support from CERN.

PS: Yes i know Bigmac and i think he makes a great job here.
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Message 22022 - Posted: 9 Mar 2010, 8:00:02 UTC - in response to Message 22020.  

...some especial the older ones just work with fortrane and thats it. They are not open for new things. I think that´s a big mistake.

No. That is not a mistake. That is factor of age. ;-)

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Message 22024 - Posted: 9 Mar 2010, 9:47:22 UTC

But i see the problem too often, that the people don´t see the chances in BOINC etc

Summing up i want to say, that when i read whot you write here, and think about it, then must say, that it is a shame that you have so littel support from CERN.

Agreed, I am not defending or condoning CERN\'s treatment of LHC@home but that is sadly how it is. There are people at CERN who do understand and support BOINC but money and hands are tied. We do the best we can with zero dedicated effort or funding. This isn\'t always good enough for some of the volunteers here on the board but sadly, as I said, this is how it is. I watch the boards (usually lurking) and I do bring the views expressed on here to meetings and we do our best to fix issues. However the priority is to get the work from the scientists, get it crunched and get it back to them. This has always got to work so other concerns fall by the way side sometimes.
some especial the older ones just work with fortrane and thats it. They are not open for new things. I think that´s a big mistake.

Although I started it Fortran is old but that doesn\'t make it bad. SixTrack is written in Fortran. So no complaints from me, it works.
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Message 22028 - Posted: 9 Mar 2010, 13:43:59 UTC

I don´t say, that Fortran is a bad language. It would say it is nice for CPU, because it is so old and so highly optimised, like i said, but you have no GPU support, and GPU´s should be great for tracing.

Perhaps in my Diplomarbeit i can do something with GPU´s in this direction. Atm my problem is a lag of time for things like this on the one hand, and on the other, the deficit of datas and source code for other platforms, so that i have some basics to start from them.
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Message 22031 - Posted: 10 Mar 2010, 8:03:47 UTC - in response to Message 22024.  

[quote]
Agreed, I am not defending or condoning CERN\\\'s treatment of LHC@home but that is sadly how it is. There are people at CERN who do understand and support BOINC but money and hands are tied. We do the best we can with zero dedicated effort or funding. This isn\\\'t always good enough for some of the volunteers here on the board but sadly, as I said, this is how it is. I watch the boards (usually lurking) and I do bring the views expressed on here to meetings and we do our best to fix issues. However the priority is to get the work from the scientists, get it crunched and get it back to them. This has always got to work so other concerns fall by the way side sometimes.

Neasan, did you and Bigmac ever consider going the Linus Torvalds route and initiating a small project that the community itself would develop - at least as an experiment? Whether it is feasible or not and how many volunteers you would get is a very open question.
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Message 22039 - Posted: 10 Mar 2010, 21:22:03 UTC

No problems for me other than I finished all of mine and am ready for more!

And I thought I was the only one here every day for the last 5+ years

Thanks Neasan......and remember send all the work units to me first!


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Message 22044 - Posted: 11 Mar 2010, 10:33:23 UTC - in response to Message 22031.  

Neasan, did you and Bigmac ever consider going the Linus Torvalds route and initiating a small project that the community itself would develop - at least as an experiment? Whether it is feasible or not and how many volunteers you would get is a very open question.


You mean the Particle Physics community? This is what we have been attempting (alongside applying for funding). If you mean the wider community i.e. you volunteers, we would still need input from particle physicists.

I am going to be making another push soon now that the LHC has settled down a little and find another application again.
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Message 22159 - Posted: 30 Mar 2010, 19:31:08 UTC
Last modified: 30 Mar 2010, 19:40:14 UTC

Well i feel a bit unhappy
lhc@home was for me a chance to get a a step into the unlimitied Frontier of science.

even i dont study physics iam no professor or have much money.

i had a good feeling and i was happy to see i could be one of those Humans wich think different about how the World works...

now sadly to see that now on tv happy Physics
for me i was supporting Cern LHC in my thoughts and Forums over years,
it feels like getting ditched.

for me that messages was, a day were a dream died, that people around the world work together on one Projekt for Humankind..


All whats now left is, World ist truly runned only by Money
the dreams the hopes i set in all academics from Cern are now gone now that i see were the truh behind everything is, the God partikle is long found its called Money

iam very very sad, geting droped like this
and i fear, if scientist think normal people are not nessesary to do something, they will someday learn how the wave can change its Way.....

to sad i was so stupid to think only good of all those happy People i now see everyday in evernews, thats a thing what makes me bit by bit more and more angry...

thanks for the LHC People wich show me a Mirror
thats u and thats all, ur nothing, ur not one of us,
we moked u, and now we dont have time for normal folks, ahm thanks for running some testsimulations, and supporting us in some unworthy Forums...

i hope still the best, for the people but doning so,
but doing so will wont make normal folks like me happy, and unhappy people
did everytime in the world change the way the world runs, in the old times.

like gorbajow sayed who not praise the past will overrunned from the pressent.
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Message 22165 - Posted: 31 Mar 2010, 3:53:14 UTC

LHC@home is not the only physics related project. I am running AQUA@home, Einstein@home, QMC@home, QuantumFIRE@home but there are still others listed in the BOINC home page.You can choose.
Tullio
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Message 22184 - Posted: 2 Apr 2010, 1:57:47 UTC - in response to Message 22020.  


Yes they should however no one has coded LHC applications for GPUs. The emergence of GPUs is extremely recent in a community where Fortran is still used and building of the machine started 17 years ago.


Ok, but isn´t this conservative and unprogressive? I mean, CERN is THE place for since. They have there the chance to find new physik and have to find new ways and theories to explain it. And on the other hand they are so small-minded an just see fortran, because they allways work with fortrane. Ok ok Fortran is very performance, beacause you have lot´s of librarys etc that are highly optimiced. But is it impossibel to bring them to C++ or so?

I have a very interesting discussion with some staff in the university and they say: yes some especial the older ones just work with fortrane and thats it. They are not open for new things. I think that´s a big mistake.

Look on Einstein@home. Perhaps they perhaps have found the shortest timelength (that is much larger than expected). Without the help of Boinc this chance for realy new science wouldn´t be given, because they haven´t the resources for this without BOINC.

Especial CPU time is allways limited, no matter how much you have, you allways can find new thinks to solve, or just crunch with a higher resolution. Why is CERN just say no to free CPU time? Ok it would be lot´s of work to bring \\\"equal\\\" performance to a home PC than to a Server in a serverfarm, but you haven´t to pay for it! So who cares about performance realy? Ohhh bad boy, your programm on Boinc is 10 times slower then on my cool serverfarm... And? Who cares? You haven´t to pay for current etc. Every singel solution you get is more or less for free! How much do CERN spend every year for hardware and maintenance? 20 Mio Euro or more? Just if you can save 0.1%, than this is a lot.

There must be so much work to do, that can solve on a normal PC very easy. Just find the trace of the particels through the detector should be a significant part of the work or not? And you can solve every singel event totaly independent from the other events (i can´t imagine something that avoid parallel solving) . Please correct me when i am wrong.

Summing up i want to say, that when i read whot you write here, and think about it, then must say, that it is a shame that you have so littel support from CERN.

PS: Yes i know Bigmac and i think he makes a great job here.


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