Message boards : Number crunching : How often does LHC shut down?
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KAMasud

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Message 19517 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 19:05:39 UTC


It is hard to grumble against that explanation ;) you win for the time being.
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Masud.
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Profile Paul D. Buck

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Message 19518 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 19:17:14 UTC

To be honest, I don't care about upgrading the server software, or clearing out old pendings, or old computers...

I am one of those radicals the man talked about in the LHC presentation ...

"Where else do you have a computer center that begs you for more work?" ...

Gimmie, Gimmie, Gimmie ... :)

If nothing else, the pitch can be that while the dedicated network they have been building can be used as the main data analysis ... I am sure that there is some other task that is planned to run, or is running, on that set of systems ... maybe that is what we should be looking at?

Just one more thought ...

When I was given a tour of the San Diego Supercomputer center at UCSD (yes I touched the Cray they had at the time), they used to run the applications and data on a Cray "look-alike" clone, a mini-Cray that executed the Cray instruction set before they wasted time on the big iron running something that was going to fail ... could that be another possiblility?
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Donald A. Tevault
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Message 19519 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 22:47:19 UTC - in response to Message 19514.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Sure.How much space do you need?


£150,000

That is supposed to be WHAT???Price of HDD or just money ,project is missing...

:-)

The approximate amount of money needed to fund someone to actually do everything everyone wants done (that is with all full economic costings etc etc)



Have you thought about hooking with Cafepress to sell some LHC swag? That could net you a few pounds, at least.
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Message 19523 - Posted: 23 Apr 2008, 9:33:12 UTC - in response to Message 19518.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2008, 9:36:51 UTC



If nothing else, the pitch can be that while the dedicated network they have been building can be used as the main data analysis ... I am sure that there is some other task that is planned to run, or is running, on that set of systems ... maybe that is what we should be looking at?

However this would require a person to port the software from the current Grid setup to BOINC and for the Grid software to be actually portable. Not only do we not have this person (see the money issue above) we have also been told that there is no way the applications the Grid runs are lightweight enough to be ported to BOINC. We keep prodding and asking about simulation applications/other experiments etc but nothing so far.


Have you thought about hooking with Cafepress to sell some LHC swag? That could net you a few pounds, at least.

There are rules about this i.e. it's not allowed. ATLAS does sell stuff but they seem to be bending the rules and it doesn't bring them in much money either.

In the end we need someone to give us the money we need, and we keep bidding for money trying to get up and running as best we can and we haven't got it. I know that sounds crap but that is how science is financed across the globe. If we are successful you will be the first to know and the first to benefit. We hope to have some summer students this year too, I know I bad mouthed them above kinda but they are great at getting some small stuff done which in the end benefits the entire project. OK it's not the best solution but it is all we have got :-/
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Profile Venturini Dario[VENETO]

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Message 19524 - Posted: 23 Apr 2008, 13:04:59 UTC - in response to Message 19523.  

In the end we need someone to give us the money we need, and we keep bidding for money trying to get up and running as best we can and we haven't got it.


Can you give us the e-mail of the person at CERN that decides which projects get money and which ones don't?
I think a couple thousands e-mails could perhaps convince him to lend you a few bucks..
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J Langley

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Message 19527 - Posted: 23 Apr 2008, 15:24:41 UTC - in response to Message 19523.  

We hope to have some summer students this year too...


Doing what? The collider should be up and running by then, so surely SixTrack will be redundant; and if there are no new apps in the pipeline, won't the project close?
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Message 19528 - Posted: 24 Apr 2008, 0:43:59 UTC - in response to Message 19527.  

and if there are no new apps in the pipeline, won't the project close?


What's about GARFIELD ? Is it coming to be distributed work for BOINC ?
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Message 19529 - Posted: 24 Apr 2008, 9:17:22 UTC - in response to Message 19524.  


Can you give us the e-mail of the person at CERN that decides which projects get money and which ones don't?
I think a couple thousands e-mails could perhaps convince him to lend you a few bucks..


Sadly a) that's not how it works and b) LHC doesn't actually have much money CERN != LHC ;-)


Doing what? The collider should be up and running by then, so surely SixTrack will be redundant; and if there are no new apps in the pipeline, won't the project close?


No, SixTrack will keep being used to tweak the magnets how regular that will be is up in the air (but then it is like that now anyway) and may have other uses.


What's about GARFIELD ? Is it coming to be distributed work for BOINC ?


This is being worked on but there is a lot of feet dragging going on
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J Langley

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Message 19538 - Posted: 25 Apr 2008, 11:21:11 UTC - in response to Message 19529.  



Sadly a) that's not how it works and b) LHC doesn't actually have much money CERN != LHC ;-)


If CERN doesn't fund LHC, who does? QMC?
If CERN doesn't fund LHC, how come they get to tell you to take the forums down for 10 days (which messed up several thousand BOINC installs)?

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KAMasud

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Message 19539 - Posted: 25 Apr 2008, 13:15:41 UTC


:) Good point raised by J Langley.
Regards
Masud.
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tullio

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Message 19540 - Posted: 25 Apr 2008, 15:38:27 UTC

I've just started an ORCA run on QMC. ORCA uses the Density Functional Theory which I am sure not many physicists know (I was a theoretical physicist).
Tullio
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Message 19546 - Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 6:46:56 UTC - in response to Message 19538.  



Sadly a) that's not how it works and b) LHC doesn't actually have much money CERN != LHC ;-)


If CERN doesn't fund LHC, who does? QMC?
If CERN doesn't fund LHC, how come they get to tell you to take the forums down for 10 days (which messed up several thousand BOINC installs)?


QFT (Quoted For Truth/I agree).
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Lord Crc

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Message 19547 - Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 7:01:34 UTC

I'm guessing the points were that

a) money/grants aren't issued based on who's whining the most (or so the theory goes)

b) the lhc is running over budget, and besides cern isn't the only player involved with the lhc...
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tullio

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Message 19548 - Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 9:43:22 UTC

I just finished my first run with QMC/ORCA, asked 36.62 credits and got 110, that is 25.58 credits/hour.
Tullio
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KAMasud

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Message 19558 - Posted: 27 Apr 2008, 20:42:14 UTC
Last modified: 27 Apr 2008, 20:42:54 UTC

LoL'z Martin must have gotten sick and tired of twiddling his thumbs ;) thats why the credit increase. Now i think we should get after Neasan to do some thing about them ;).
Regards
Masud.
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Message 19582 - Posted: 30 Apr 2008, 14:29:12 UTC - in response to Message 19538.  

If CERN doesn't fund LHC, who does? QMC?
If CERN doesn't fund LHC, how come they get to tell you to take the forums down for 10 days (which messed up several thousand BOINC installs)?

I assume it's the university of london that controls the project and cern that controls the content. Or something like that.
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Message 19584 - Posted: 30 Apr 2008, 18:03:55 UTC - in response to Message 19538.  
Last modified: 30 Apr 2008, 18:15:53 UTC



Sadly a) that's not how it works and b) LHC doesn't actually have much money CERN != LHC ;-)


If CERN doesn't fund LHC, who does? QMC?
If CERN doesn't fund LHC, how come they get to tell you to take the forums down for 10 days (which messed up several thousand BOINC installs)?



If CERN doesn't fund LHC then that means L@H project doesn't have serious value for CERN mission?! I mean these world wide people are committing their pc's and electricity bills for the good of scientific advancement not for a few researchers' "toy project".

I think L@H project team should clarify the actual connection between CERN and L@H. What are the results? What are the values etc...

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Message 19586 - Posted: 1 May 2008, 10:55:16 UTC - in response to Message 19538.  


If CERN doesn't fund LHC, who does? QMC?
If CERN doesn't fund LHC, how come they get to tell you to take the forums down for 10 days (which messed up several thousand BOINC installs)?


LHC is funded by countries who just happen to be the CERN member states and it is also based at CERN. CERN is separate but involved in the LHC.
LHC@home is funded by no one, Alex and I donate our time for free and the hardware here at QMUL was donated by GridPP, sometimes we get students to work on the project but that is in 3 month bursts and we never know what will come out the other end.

CERN owns the cern.ch domain and as we are on that they have a right to tell us to take down content they feel is inappropriate, the other option was they turned off lhcathome.cern.ch pointing at our server.

The work we do here is valuable to the LHC but when lined up against everything else they are pumping money into we come quite far down the food chain. The experiments and the LHC have priorities and we are not a top one for them, they will use whatever data we provide but as with all science we have to stand on our own two feet and not just hope and pray for handouts (though we do that too).

I've been off for the last week (supporting awesome) so haven't been on here for a while.
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Message 19608 - Posted: 13 May 2008, 6:03:03 UTC - in response to Message 19586.  

That sounds quite weird, either you're "part of the team", give and get your share in return, or something is really not as it should be.

Sounds like the LHC guys get the data, say "thanks for the fish" and just walk away. Not quite the kind of return one would expect when delivering data that effectively is a smart multi-million-$ damage prevention program (?)
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J Langley

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Message 19627 - Posted: 16 May 2008, 17:14:06 UTC - in response to Message 19586.  

The work we do here is valuable to the LHC...


But apparently not valuable enough for them to actually pay for it. Do LHC/CERN seriously expect that in return for a base URL, you will provide them with a free supercomputer?

If that's the case, I'm seriously considering quitting LHC@home in favour of projects where the scientists demonstrably appreciate the work of their IT staff and BOINC contributors.

A further thought - why do you and Alex bother with LHC@home? Doesn't QMUL have some other projects it could use our computers for? (Or is the GridPP donation restricted to only running LHC@home?)

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Message boards : Number crunching : How often does LHC shut down?


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