Message boards : Number crunching : How often does LHC shut down?
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Message 19470 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 2:33:11 UTC - in response to Message 19468.  

I would be willing to bet that if they did a port of their analysis program to BOINC we could do as well as the super computers they have lined up to do their data .

Not a chance, a single dataset which a machine needs would be at least 1 gigabyte of data and your machine would have to download that before it could do anything else. We are TRYING to find something from the analysis of real data that will port but the big four have told us that the code is too, lets say, verbose.

Well, there are quite a few of us with both the bandwidth and larger than average computers ...


I second that. The size of the downloads shouldn't cause me a bandwith problem, most of my systems have plenty of disk space (and 500 GB disks are the only $100 or so these days). Admittedly, I have several systems running XP Pro, which therefore have memory limitations. The only reason most of them are running a Windows OS at all is that proteins@home doesn't have a Linux app. Give me a steady supply of LHC work, and I'll buy memory, install Linux, and abandon proteins@home.

Maybe you should create a second project for the analysis work (with strong warnings about the kind of machines required to run it). I'd be attracted to such a project, and maybe other people with serious hardware would.



I third that!, lol
A high bandwidth project, even if it took days or a couple weeks to crunch a single WU would be doable and if need be could parallel multiple CPU's if it's supported to crunch it faster. There are many of us that are flexible enough with our hardware that those numbers are not that big of a deal really. If you set up the requirements, people will crunch it. You'd be surprised how many people could attach a 10,20, or even 50 gigaflop cluster out of old junk if you asked them to. In fact I think that would be a very popular project, because people would look at it more as "elite credits" and build up to crunch it.
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Message 19471 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 4:38:57 UTC - in response to Message 19470.  

I would be willing to bet that if they did a port of their analysis program to BOINC we could do as well as the super computers they have lined up to do their data .

Not a chance, a single dataset which a machine needs would be at least 1 gigabyte of data and your machine would have to download that before it could do anything else. We are TRYING to find something from the analysis of real data that will port but the big four have told us that the code is too, lets say, verbose.

Well, there are quite a few of us with both the bandwidth and larger than average computers ...


I second that. The size of the downloads shouldn't cause me a bandwith problem, most of my systems have plenty of disk space (and 500 GB disks are the only $100 or so these days). Admittedly, I have several systems running XP Pro, which therefore have memory limitations. The only reason most of them are running a Windows OS at all is that proteins@home doesn't have a Linux app. Give me a steady supply of LHC work, and I'll buy memory, install Linux, and abandon proteins@home.

Maybe you should create a second project for the analysis work (with strong warnings about the kind of machines required to run it). I'd be attracted to such a project, and maybe other people with serious hardware would.



I third that!, lol
A high bandwidth project, even if it took days or a couple weeks to crunch a single WU would be doable and if need be could parallel multiple CPU's if it's supported to crunch it faster. There are many of us that are flexible enough with our hardware that those numbers are not that big of a deal really. If you set up the requirements, people will crunch it. You'd be surprised how many people could attach a 10,20, or even 50 gigaflop cluster out of old junk if you asked them to. In fact I think that would be a very popular project, because people would look at it more as "elite credits" and build up to crunch it.


Big computers with huge HDD and Ram are not problem for me...(Before crash I had fully working 1TB partition + 0.5TB Partition for backup)

And I have access to academic network with 100Mbit/s line (ethernet) :-)

So I fourth that...
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Message 19474 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 6:38:43 UTC
Last modified: 18 Apr 2008, 6:39:33 UTC


Server Status

Up, 35,960 workunits to crunch
25662 workunits in progress
6 concurrent connections

I have been getting a few now and then the last week or so and lots of work last month too.

Now I have enough more work to keep my machines happy and maybe fire up another.

(XP Pro dual processors Paul )

Plenty of memory and disc space.


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Message 19477 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 8:22:29 UTC

Well, all I have is a old dual core AMD 4400 , a dual Xeon with HT, and a single HT processor ...

At least, that is all I have that can do LHC ... I have something else to do real work on ... :)
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Message 19479 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 10:38:08 UTC

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?

b) Now if I'd know there were workunits coming I could have told you all yesterday but oh no the first I know of it is when I come on here to check the boards, ARGH!
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Message 19484 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 13:07:01 UTC - in response to Message 19479.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?

b) Now if I'd know there were workunits coming I could have told you all yesterday but oh no the first I know of it is when I come on here to check the boards, ARGH!


a) I think it's doable for some. Maybe not with the same resources as other OS's but definately doable, and would get support, although I imagine it being slow at first to attract new users.

b) Good news that there is work, bad that they don't tell you. :/ Sorry to hear it, hopefully communication improves as this thing nears completion.
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Message 19485 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 13:16:42 UTC - in response to Message 19470.  


I third that!, lol
A high bandwidth project, even if it took days or a couple weeks to crunch a single WU would be doable and if need be could parallel multiple CPU's if it's supported to crunch it faster. There are many of us that are flexible enough with our hardware that those numbers are not that big of a deal really. If you set up the requirements, people will crunch it. You'd be surprised how many people could attach a 10,20, or even 50 gigaflop cluster out of old junk if you asked them to. In fact I think that would be a very popular project, because people would look at it more as "elite credits" and build up to crunch it.


umm...Forth!

It would be a very popular project indeed. l33t credits for those with sufficient Horsepower. Too bad OpenMosix atm doesn't deal with boinc well. Seems like it would work with a single project meant to run on clusters in my mind but not sure. As echoed by others bandwidth and diskspace are non issues for many here.

Another route I could see being hugely succesfull, and provide a level of stability/reliabilty with results not seen when using multiple hardware platforms. Would be if...there was a way to make an app that just needed ridiculous amounts of cpu but could handle limited ram. The coolest thing in the world would be to have a project like LHC (that so many people feel so passionately about) make use of all the PS3's.
Look at the enourmous computing power Folding brought to the table with the ps3 app. I think a project like this could really show what ps3's can do. Look at the groups making small ps3 clusters with 6-8 machines to replace leased supercomputer time. Here is a company that makes turn key ps3 clusters.
http://terrasoftsolutions.com/
Anyway, sorry to ramble on and on just been really excited about the LHC and about the crunching power of PS3, but not too interested in the science at ps3grid. Not enough to farm them anyway. So I think this would be a match made in heaven.
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Message 19488 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 16:30:57 UTC - in response to Message 19479.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Isn't it possible to virtualize it? I'm fine with all the requests except "not use my machine for anything else"

But, anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer a BOINC app.
I mean, there must be something a normal computer can do. Do you need 5-10-50GB of space for datas? Maybe you can use our bandwidth to transfer all datas around the world "torrent like"? Be creative ;)
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Message 19490 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 2:36:27 UTC - in response to Message 19477.  

Well, all I have is a old dual core AMD 4400 , a dual Xeon with HT, and a single HT processor ...

At least, that is all I have that can do LHC ... I have something else to do real work on ... :)


I can only say I have a house full of pc's if I count all the ones that are in my parts pile........but I do have a AMD 3200 with 1.275 ram and 500 HD just sitting here (it won't connect to my satellite isp for some reason so I may give it a dial-up test)

So right no I am just running a dual P4 and a old P4 and from another State an old AMD......but I agree with doing the "real work"

Which is why I only run Einstein and LHC

(and if both are shut down and seti emails me begging for me to do some I will load about 5 days worth......not that I think it will do anything)



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Message 19491 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 6:29:26 UTC

Well, I am "gadding about" and playing with a bunch of projects ...

I think that I will be EVENTUALLY settle down to Einstein, MilkyWay, Cosmology, an WCG as my mains; with the Mac Pro I think I can keep resonsable RAC and return with about 20 projects ... with shares of 100, 50, 25 and 12 ... with more projects at each lower level ...

I think the 25 level will be more of the pure math projects and the lowest level mostly the odd corners ...

For the moment I will be driving my numbers for a few project up before I "settle down" with a stock set of projects.

If I were not just suffering from an acute attack of bills for the system I just bought ... well, I just saw a MB for a quad core ... :)
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Message 19492 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 6:58:38 UTC - in response to Message 19491.  



If I were not just suffering from an acute attack of bills for the system I just bought ... well, I just saw a MB for a quad core ... :)


Yes I know what you mean Paul.....we do spend quite a bit of money to do these projects over the years.

The only thing good about my old machines dying (PIII 500,amd 1600 and other even older junk)is then we have a reason to get the better and faster ones.

And we don't do this to send our emails with

If not for the wife I would have a room full of dual cores and quad cores!

I get emails from Tigerdirect almost every day with great deals on parts to build the quads and cheap deals on assembled dual core machines!

Half the price for the last one I got (dual core P4 3.2)

Right now a deal on a fast quad will tempt me enough to order it when the wife isn't looking

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Message 19493 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 8:40:15 UTC - in response to Message 19479.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Sure.How much space do you need?
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Message 19495 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 9:36:58 UTC - in response to Message 19492.  

Right now a deal on a fast quad will tempt me enough to order it when the wife isn't looking


Well, I am giving away an older machine and am "testing" it ... :)

I think the next visit I will have to actually part with it... BUT, I am hoping to "guilt" the person I will give the system to ... to let me have her run it all the time for a month or two so i get another two months of production out of it ...

Then, when I think I can afford a quad I think I will swap her for the older one, give her a slightly faster one, put the quad in the slowest machine and I can guilt her into another couple months of work ...

The wife is NOT going to let me run 10 computers in the house again ...

The only good news is that the 8 cores in the Mac Pro really go through the work... so, with luck I can go through my older machines and in a year, year and a half I can have two Quad cores running ... Not sure I can really upgrade the dual Xeon Dell I have with a new MB as it is in this "funky" case ...

Heck, before I started to "inflate" my RAC by rapidly switching projects I was getting 5-6K with just three systems ... before, two years ago, it took me 10 systems for a RAC like that ...
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Message 19497 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 12:14:44 UTC


:) We all love a challenge, Neasan throw us one ;)
Regards
Masud.
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Message 19498 - Posted: 19 Apr 2008, 15:41:28 UTC - in response to Message 19497.  


:) We all love a challenge, Neasan throw us one ;)
Regards
Masud.

Someone did, but, the amount is dropping like a stone ... and I cannot capture 10 sets across my old farm ... sigh ... only three windows machines left ... and one of them soon gone ... ah well ...

LHC never promised us much I have to give them that ...

But, hope springs eternal in a puppy's and a cruncher's heart ...
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Message 19508 - Posted: 21 Apr 2008, 9:49:29 UTC - in response to Message 19493.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Sure.How much space do you need?


£150,000
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Message 19510 - Posted: 21 Apr 2008, 14:56:42 UTC - in response to Message 19508.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Sure.How much space do you need?


£150,000

That is supposed to be WHAT???Price of HDD or just money ,project is missing...

:-)
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Message 19514 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 8:48:10 UTC - in response to Message 19510.  

a) We have a second project it's called the Grid. The LHC's computing needs are being fulfilled by that IF we can get something ported to BOINC we will but I reiterate we have no money. Also it's not just the download are you all willing to have large, hard drives, massive broadband connections and run only Scientific Linux (CERN edition) and not use your machines for anything else?


Sure.How much space do you need?


£150,000

That is supposed to be WHAT???Price of HDD or just money ,project is missing...

:-)

The approximate amount of money needed to fund someone to actually do everything everyone wants done (that is with all full economic costings etc etc)
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Message 19515 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 9:01:58 UTC


LoL'z, now we know why you are not getting any funds :'( no way any one is going to dish that amount out. Well hope springs eternal :) any takers?
Regards
Masud.
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Message 19516 - Posted: 22 Apr 2008, 11:22:00 UTC

That number is for the best case scenario i.e. some one full time for two years to really get the project moving with upgrades, new applications, public engagement.

This has always been our plan (and still is) and it is hard finding people to fund it but as you can see two people working on it in their spare time with the occasional summer student for 3 months doesn't meet everyone's demands.

Alex and I will still keep plugging away but this really is a full time job to be done to satisfy everyone (not just the volunteers) and we will keep applying for funding to make this project as great as it can be but until then we have to keep it running as best we can and sometimes that means just making sure that the scientists can submit their work, that everyone gets a fair chance to get some of it and that it all gets returned to the scientists(even during the recent downtime this happened).
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Message boards : Number crunching : How often does LHC shut down?


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