Message boards : Number crunching : We will NOT be crunching the results of the LHC collisions
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KWSN-GMC-Peeper of the Castle ...
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Message 22787 - Posted: 8 Jun 2011, 22:07:27 UTC - in response to Message 22673.  

My English is very weak...
Am I correct? The Grid is big, ultra-powerful, but its resources are limited, so that grid-computing is going slower as data collecting at LHC...


Perhaps I can help you understand. DESIGNING the instrument is engineering and beneath the dignity of most of the scientists. They couldn\'t care less if monkeys did it as long as specifications they need are met. Therefore we are tolerated.
Working on the DATA from the instrument however is a different matter and we\'re welcome to keep our dirty laymans fingers right off of it. Not to mention the fear of somebody else getting hold of the results and publishing first. I\'d bet large money \'The Grid\' is one of the most secure VPN\'s on the face of the earth and very likely each experiment has it\'s own private encryption key.
Arguments of data quantity are of course misleading..this could all be automated. If anybody trys to tell me porting portions of the code from linux to X86/BOINC format is too much for a project of this magnitude I\'ll laugh in their face. The decision was made to not put the actual data out in public for the above reasons.
If you want to do science, run einstein or milkyway.
If you want to believe there\'s a chance in hell of hearing alien signals from an antenna at the bottom of our atmosphere, run seti.
IF however, you have dreams of doing more than helping design engineers out once in a while, you\'re in the wrong place.


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Profile jujube

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Message 22788 - Posted: 8 Jun 2011, 22:39:42 UTC - in response to Message 22787.  

Arguments of data quantity are of course misleading..this could all be automated. If anybody trys to tell me porting portions of the code from linux to X86/BOINC format is too much for a project of this magnitude I\\\'ll laugh in their face. The decision was made to not put the actual data out in public for the above reasons.


I don\'t care what reasons they give for not making the data public. Any excuse is fine with me as long as the data is kept out of the hands of rogue states like North Korea, Libya and the USA.
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KWSN-GMC-Peeper of the Castle ...
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Message 22789 - Posted: 8 Jun 2011, 23:43:05 UTC - in response to Message 22788.  


I don\\\'t care what reasons they give for not making the data public. Any excuse is fine with me as long as the data is kept out of the hands of rogue states like North Korea, Libya and the USA.



Really. Could you have worked any harder or been more clumsy jamming your little political whine into our nonrelated discussion?


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Butteroven

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Message 22790 - Posted: 9 Jun 2011, 8:14:36 UTC - in response to Message 22789.  


I don\\\\\\\'t care what reasons they give for not making the data public. Any excuse is fine with me as long as the data is kept out of the hands of rogue states like North Korea, Libya and the USA.


Really. Could you have worked any harder or been more clumsy jamming your little political whine into our nonrelated discussion?


Yes. Let\'s get back to the completely rational discussion of how we\'re fobbed off with meaningless busywork while CERN process all the GOOD data in a super-encrypted science-theft-proof bunker...
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tullio

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Message 22792 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 13:20:30 UTC

I am crunching real LHC data. See the LHC+@home thread.
Tullio
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Profile Tom95134

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Message 22793 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 21:06:05 UTC - in response to Message 22792.  

I am crunching real LHC data. See the LHC+@home thread.
Tullio


Sorry, but you are mistaken. The data on the LHC+@Home is just test data. That project is in a testing stage and is by invitation only because they are working on getting the issues sorted out.
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Message 22794 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 21:55:00 UTC

I am crunching real LHC data. See the LHC+@home thread.
Tullio


LHC+@home is better known as Test4Theory@home. Go to the project\'s home page and read the info there. Clearly, they are not crunching data from particle collisions in the LHC. They are simulating particle collisions. Nor is there any reason to believe they will be crunching data from the particle collisions in the future if/when the project goes into production phase.
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tullio

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Message 22795 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 4:40:05 UTC

My computer is number 12 on that project and has been working since November 28 2010.
Tullio
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Message 22796 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 5:15:20 UTC - in response to Message 22795.  

My computer is number 12 on that project and has been working since November 28 2010.
Tullio


Nobody cares what your computer number is or how long it\'s been working there.
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Tony DeBari

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Message 22797 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 6:14:07 UTC - in response to Message 22796.  

My computer is number 12 on that project and has been working since November 28 2010.
Tullio


Nobody cares what your computer number is or how long it\'s been working there.


And that was necessary why, exactly?

The data being crunched as part of the Test4Theory@Home alpha test may not be from the LHC proper, but it is live data from actual studies being done by CERN scientists. At present, there are at least three different types of jobs being fed to the volunteer testers, with more to be added as progress on both the virtual machine and the BOINC interface to the hypervisor continue.

The ultimate goal is to demonstrate that the virtual machine running on an arbitrary BOINC host appears sufficiently indistinguishable from CERN\'s internal grid running Scientific Linux as to able to natively run the tools already in place to analyze the LHC collision data. If the LHC+@Home/Text4Theory@Home team succeeds in providing proof-of-concept for the scientists and can create a viable, well-behaved project for the BOINC user base, there is every expectation that said project will be used to crunch the data from actual LHC collision experiments.


-- Tony D.
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Message 22799 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 7:48:57 UTC - in response to Message 22797.  

If the LHC+@Home/Text4Theory@Home team succeeds in providing proof-of-concept for the scientists and can create a viable, well-behaved project for the BOINC user base, there is every expectation that said project will be used to crunch the data from actual LHC collision experiments.

The expectation you speak of is your expectation and yours alone. I can\'t find anything on the Test4Theory@home site that indicates anyone associated with CERN in an official capacity shares your expectation. Did I miss something?
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tullio

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Message 22800 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 8:27:19 UTC

Go to the BOINC home page, Brasil@home videos, and see the talk by dr.Ben Segal.
Tullio
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Tony DeBari

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Message 22801 - Posted: 11 Jun 2011, 15:09:35 UTC - in response to Message 22799.  

If the LHC+@Home/Text4Theory@Home team succeeds in providing proof-of-concept for the scientists and can create a viable, well-behaved project for the BOINC user base, there is every expectation that said project will be used to crunch the data from actual LHC collision experiments.

The expectation you speak of is your expectation and yours alone. I can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t find anything on the Test4Theory@home site that indicates anyone associated with CERN in an official capacity shares your expectation. Did I miss something?



From the LHC++@Home home page:

LHC++@Home is based at CERN and uses the CERN-developed CernVM and BoincVM systems to harness volunteer cloud computing power for the CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) physics experiments. We will host several sub-projects as we work with different physics groups.

Seems pretty clear to me.


-- Tony D.
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Message 22825 - Posted: 1 Aug 2011, 9:43:55 UTC - in response to Message 22801.  
Last modified: 1 Aug 2011, 9:44:22 UTC

From the LHC++@Home home page:

LHC++@Home is based at CERN and uses the CERN-developed CernVM and BoincVM systems to harness volunteer cloud computing power for the CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) physics experiments. We will host several sub-projects as we work with different physics groups.

Seems pretty clear to me.


-- Tony D.


As Tony D. pointed out Test4Theory@Home IS part of CERN/LHC Volunteer Distributed Computing effort, as being part of LHC++@Home, which shall broaden the use of VDC by the LHC science team beyond the goals of LHC@Home/sixtrack, thus meaning that further future BOINC-projects shuld be added to the LHC++@Home program beyond T4T@H.

By the way, until yesterday, July 31st 2011,, T4T@H was in alpha stage and account creation required an invitation code (I am among the alpha-testers).
Since today, August 1st 2011, T4T@H moved to open beta, so anyone can create an account there and start crunching, though you have to install ORACLE VM to actually crunch WUs form T4t@H.

Since I joined T4T@H I have never seen a No work available message form the BOINC-Client..

darkpella
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tullio

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Message 22826 - Posted: 1 Aug 2011, 16:33:31 UTC

I have been crunching Test4Theory@home since November on my Linux box and things now are going smoothly thanks to Ben and Daniel. I have updated many times VirtualBox and I am using it also to run a Solaris Express Virtual Machine.There is no thing a normal user cannot do, and LHC programs like PYTHIA work without using much memory.
Tullio
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Vepide

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Message 22827 - Posted: 4 Aug 2011, 5:39:19 UTC

OK downloaded and installed Oracle Virtual Box, now what?
Added project to BOINC, nothing.

Tried creating an account as my former LHC account doesn\'t seem to be recognized and I failed to corectly type in the CAPTCHA words 10 times in a row, so I could not create an account. The test4theory site suggests to get help on the forum. Excuse me but if I can\'t set up an account how am I supposed to communicate with other forum users?

Seems test4theory has alot of work to do to get out of beta.
Oracle box should be packaged into an installer with a pre-configured guest OS that the science apps depend on and it should be able to find the BOINC installation and connect with it. Otherwise all of the info I\'ve seen so far is incomplete, sketchy, with no way of contacting anyone about anything. Guess i\'ll come back to Test4Theory in a years or so if things become straightened out.

Spending hours of researching trying to get this to function as an end user immediately causes me to close all my browser windows and everything associated with Test4Theory and belch out a big \"SCREW IT\". Rumors of an Open Beta doesn\'t seem to be very open.
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Message 22828 - Posted: 4 Aug 2011, 6:42:51 UTC

Ignore my previous post, guess I won\'t wait a year to try getting this to work, its working now and I\'m crunching my first WU.

It appears Oracle only utilizes its networking module for authentication to BOINC and T4T\'s Project Servers and there is no need to set up any VM, the Oracle box can just run unconfigured in your task bar or tray.

100 hours!

We need to get this project running with Nvidia and ATI if the WU data can support being run from GPU\'s rather than the CPU.

Will this project eventually port into the LHC@Home after its out of Beta? I had one WU on there once but killed it with the screen saver accidentally...so no credits for that project yet.
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Message 22829 - Posted: 4 Aug 2011, 7:04:12 UTC - in response to Message 22828.  

Actually it took awhile for a Linux VM Kernel thread to start and open in a separate Oracle Window, it is now running so far without error, and appears as a VM in the Oracle manager Window.

Hmm....guess the project labs must use Oracle VBox alot for their virtual server environments.

Ignore my previous post, guess I won\\\'t wait a year to try getting this to work, its working now and I\\\'m crunching my first WU.

It appears Oracle only utilizes its networking module for authentication to BOINC and T4T\\\'s Project Servers and there is no need to set up any VM, the Oracle box can just run unconfigured in your task bar or tray.

100 hours!

We need to get this project running with Nvidia and ATI if the WU data can support being run from GPU\\\'s rather than the CPU.

Will this project eventually port into the LHC@Home after its out of Beta? I had one WU on there once but killed it with the screen saver accidentally...so no credits for that project yet.

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Message 22830 - Posted: 4 Aug 2011, 8:53:55 UTC
Last modified: 4 Aug 2011, 8:55:19 UTC

Setting \"while processor useage is less than percent\" to 0
percent in BOINC Manager\'s Computing preferences in the processor useage tab, will keep projects from flipping between \"Running and Suspended-CPU Busy\" states intermitently as I found out. It was also causing Oracle VM Box to do the same. This is set to 25 percent by default as it is a fresh BOINC reinstallation. Not a problem as that BOINC function is working correctly. The T4T WU is still crunching. But if that setting is above 0 percent all projects will be affected and intermitently flip between running and cpu-busy states, but only if processor useage is above x percent.
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Message 22831 - Posted: 4 Aug 2011, 19:16:39 UTC

Test4Theory has gone Beta!

Test4Theory (T4T) is a test project, to demonstrate the use of CERN-developed CernVM and BOINCVM systems to harness volunteer cloud computing power for full-fledged LHC event physics simulation on volunteer computers.

You can check it out HERE.

T4T makes use of the Oracle Virtual Machine to run BOINC Work Units.

Tom
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Message boards : Number crunching : We will NOT be crunching the results of the LHC collisions


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