Message boards : Number crunching : Official Word on no more Work Units...!!!!
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 . . . 7 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profile Jim Baize
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 17 Sep 04
Posts: 103
Credit: 38,543
RAC: 0
Message 5046 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 19:40:13 UTC - in response to Message 5043.  

Supposedly, today is the due date for the grants for which Predictor was trying. If that is so, we should see some things starting to flow from Predictor in the next few days.

> > ... I hope they return quickly, it has been alot of fun :o)
>
> So do I but if Predictor@Home is the standard to go by...
>
ID: 5046 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile FalconFly
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 121
Credit: 592,214
RAC: 0
Message 5047 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 19:44:02 UTC - in response to Message 5044.  
Last modified: 9 Nov 2004, 19:47:03 UTC

ID: 5047 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile littleBouncer
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 23 Oct 04
Posts: 358
Credit: 1,439,205
RAC: 0
Message 5048 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 19:48:17 UTC - in response to Message 5047.  

ID: 5048 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5049 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 20:12:30 UTC
Last modified: 9 Nov 2004, 20:15:11 UTC

It's a long-range effort, so after 1-2 months, you could actually stop crunching and see large amounts of Credits still running in for weeks. That's just the way it works :)
==========

Tell me about it, I quit running Seti when I had about 40,000 Credits and after 6 or 7 weeks later I'm almost up to 49,000 Credits without running any WU's for those 6 or 7 weeks. And I still have Credits pending from when I quit...

I know how Seti Works, I ran up over 17,000 credits running the Beta that were wiped out when they went live. But I still find it frustrating as hell to turn in WU after WU with no change in your credits for days on end.

I can put out 80-90 Seti WU's a day so it don't take long for me to pile up a bunch of pending credits. It's the people constantly reseting or detaching from and reattaching that mess the whole thing up. And for every new person that joins Seti it just makes it worse.
ID: 5049 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile FalconFly
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 121
Credit: 592,214
RAC: 0
Message 5051 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 21:41:11 UTC - in response to Message 5049.  
Last modified: 9 Nov 2004, 21:41:50 UTC

ID: 5051 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5053 - Posted: 9 Nov 2004, 22:59:19 UTC

I give up, you win, it's too hard to argue with somebody that thinks waiting 2-3 month's for your credit is perfectly logical...You Rah Rah Boys for Seti are like Religious Fanatics in that no matter what somebody says you make it sound like there's always going to be a Pot Of Gold at the end of the Rainbow ...
ID: 5053 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile FalconFly
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 121
Credit: 592,214
RAC: 0
Message 5054 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 6:56:28 UTC - in response to Message 5053.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 7:01:32 UTC

ID: 5054 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile littleBouncer
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 23 Oct 04
Posts: 358
Credit: 1,439,205
RAC: 0
Message 5055 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 7:22:30 UTC - in response to Message 5054.  


> Persistence and a bit patience is what such a Project needs, that's it.


FalconFly you are absolutly right.

@PoorBoy: did you remark that LHC result Stats is allways 1.2 days behind the "instant-Stat." at BOINCstats? Did you see there "instant credits. (Only on CPDN; and this pays better than LHC)

Be salutised programs to be crunched...
ID: 5055 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ric

Send message
Joined: 17 Sep 04
Posts: 190
Credit: 649,637
RAC: 0
Message 5059 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 9:45:12 UTC - in response to Message 5049.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 9:46:38 UTC

2-3 months ?

That's nonsense, sorry. I said 'at most' 2-3 weeks (and that's already a worst-case scenario)

A while ago, setting up a brand new client for SETI, the client got first "credits" after about 3 Days.

Since over a month, I left SETI, to give them the time needed, to solve som eurgend problems.
Not really having the last overview, pehaps wrong, but the double time running problem is still available to the public versions of m$ client. I have time to wait for a time re-optimized client.

In life I have other, higher leveled priorities than "credits". It's only a number.
But:
Since I left SETI, daily "my" credits are groing and growing.

Growing with out (active) contributing!

My interpretation is, work was resend and resend and one more time resend..
to complete a full validated trio.

And the full validation thingy is complicated too.

>That's nonsense, sorry.
no! it just the way it is.

@PoorBoy, have other values/Numbers, but THE SAME.

Here at LHC, "my" pending credits are around 9000. Even power offing ALL clients, the counters perhaps will grow and grow.

May I put one more time:
BOINC (server parts like Data handling, validator,.. ,client parts )
and the implementation of the scientific projects IS extrem complicated,
the operation of it, is demanding.

it's never a YES/NO or True /no true, it a way, a path to pass.

And yes. while sleeping well, one or two WUs, dated to 24. of November found the way out to the clients.

faithfull contributing till last work is proper done and returned.
ID: 5059 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5060 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 10:26:30 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 15:16:47 UTC

2-3 months ?

That's nonsense, sorry. I said 'at most' 2-3 weeks (and that's already a worst-case scenario)
===========

Then I must just be imagining I still see 50 Seti WU's sitting in my Results Account dated from the 24th of September back to the 27th of July.

I have checked every one of them and they all have been turned in by 3 people with no invalid results for any of them yet no credit has ever been granted on any of them.

And why do I download WU's that have been sent out 7-9 times already, I can guarantee you somebody's been wait a heck of a lot longer than 2-3 weeks for Credit on those WU's if they've been sent out that often already.

If you think 2-3 weeks is a worst-case scenario you don't have a clue to what your talking about. The WU's would have to be done by the first person it was sent too or re-sent back out and the next person would have it done in a week in order for all WU's to recieve credit within 3 weeks. If that was the case you would never see WU's that have been sent out numerous times as I have already stated seeing WU's sent out 7-9 times and even a few more times than that.

I don't demand instant credit because I know it's not possible the way the credit system is set up. But I don't think I should have to wait 3 1/2 Months (Which would date back to the 27th of July) either for credit on any work unit.

I don't know if you've been over at the Seti Site recently or not, but if you read the Forums there's numerous complaints of people receiving 0 Credits for Valid WU's and People receiving 25 or 30 Credits for WU's that they turned in and requested 0 Credits for...Go Figure

I was with the Beta Seti and had 12,000 Credits wiped out when they went Semi Live. I lost another 6,000 Credits when they went Live Public. I went thru the Great WU's Massacre by the Server in July and the Minor ones after that. All told I probably lost 500-600 WU's because of the hardware screw ups, you'll have to forgive me if I seem a little impatient with the Seti Site because they've done nothing but screw just about everybody that runs there and their still doing it from the Message Board Posts that I see.
ID: 5060 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5061 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 10:52:39 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 11:30:14 UTC

@PoorBoy: did you remark that LHC result Stats is allways 1.2 days behind the "instant-Stat." at BOINCstats? Did you see there "instant credits. (Only on CPDN; and this pays better than LHC)
==========

@ littleBouncer

No, I never made that statement that I know of anyway ...

And yes I know about CPDN as I have run some there also, but I have a hard time getting myself to run the CPDN WU's because of the length of time it takes to run them.

I have about 35,000 Credits there but have yet finished a WU's from them. Some of that was due to Hardware errors on my part (At least I think it was) and some was due to CPDN error's. I've actually got to the 77th step a few times but still didn't finish the WU because it reported bad because of a software issue they were having at the time. I quit after that little episode and haven't run any from there since ...
ID: 5061 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Trane Francks

Send message
Joined: 18 Sep 04
Posts: 71
Credit: 28,399
RAC: 0
Message 5062 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 12:05:59 UTC - in response to Message 5060.  

> have to forgive me if I seem a little impatient with the Seti Site because
> they've done nothing but screw just about everybody that runs there and their
> still doing it from the Message Board Posts that I see.

You know this is coming, right?

It's science, man. They owe you nothing. They're not screwing with you. They're human beans who are prone to making mistakes just like anybody else. You gotta lighten up and just let BOINC crunch along. You'd do very, very well to not worry so much about credits.

Does that sound utopic and altruistic? Perhaps. I just find it pathetically (!) laughable for people to rely heavily on BOINC and yet condemn S@H, as it's the same team developing/maintaining both projects. Damn one, damn them both.

It's science. Your contribution to that is what matters. And you can laugh-at or poo-poo that comment all you like, but you know it truly is the bottom line. If it weren't, the project wouldn't exist.
ID: 5062 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5063 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 12:38:55 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 13:39:29 UTC

In actuallity The real Bottom Line is if it weren't for the Credits none of these Projects would even exist, ask any Dev and they would be lying if they told you any different. Before any of these Projects started up the Dev's knew they needed something to attract enough people to make it worthwhile to even start them up, thus the Credit System.

I've read the article that verifies that if you doubt me. It states right in the article that without the Credit system the Dev's highly doubted they could attract enough people to run the WU's to make it even worthwhile to even start the Projects up.

Why do you think they came up with this new BOINC Cross Project System for running the Projects, simply put it's because they couldn't get enough people to run all the other Projects other than Seti because thats where the Competition for Credits was at...That and to try and stop all the cheating that was going on also. (I'm sure all the people cheating where cheating for the Science too) So they devised this new BOINC Platform to force the people to go run the other projects besides the Seti Project.

If you want to get on your high horse and say it's for the Science or whatever floats your boat so be it, but I've never made any pretense of doing it for the Science although I would hope my contribution helps in some small way. If you took away the Credits you would see a mass exodus from the Projects on a major scale & the Projects would fold because the amount of people left wouldn't be enough to run the WU's...IMO

I laugh in the face of the people I see making inquiry after inquiry about the Credits or their Credits and then say they are doing it for the Science...Do you think all these big Teams exist & the Competition between them is because of the Science, I hardly think so.

Also you need the Credit System to give everybody some sort of gage on how they are doing, if their even turning in any good WU's or just a bunch of Junk Results. What good would it do anybody if there was no Credit System and we ran the project for a year and never turned in 1 single good result. It would be a waste of time for the Project and the Person running the WU's I think. So the Credits give you some sort of indication if you doing any good or not.

The Bottom Line is without the Credits there would be no Projects for you to do it for the Science ... Poo - Poo that ... ;)
ID: 5063 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scott Brown

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 16
Credit: 15,568
RAC: 0
Message 5066 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 14:12:47 UTC

@FalconFly

The 'worst case' length for a SETI unit is far longer than 2-3weeks. The real maximum length would occur when a workunit requires computation by the maximum #of allowable host. On the SETI project, this would entail the initial distribution to 3 hosts, followed by redistribution to other hosts after the 2 week period of the original 3 hosts is exceeded. Since SETI uses a maximum of 8 hosts (I think??) per work unit, this could entail a 12 week (or 3-month) period of waiting (2 weeks for the initial 3 hosts plus 2 weeks each for each of the additional 5 hosts). However, this is a very unlikely scenario given that the workunits requiring the maximum # of hosts usually cannot be validated so that no credit is ever given. Nevertheless, waits for credit of 2 months are very possible (and those exceeding the 2-3 week range should be common). I am not sure about the calculation here at LHC given the fundamental differences in the number of initial hosts, the number of maximum hosts, and the use of at least two very distinct types of workunits with very different processing times.

@PoorBoy

I believe you are correct regarding the impact of the credit system on participation. However, no defintive answer on this will ever be found until an actual user survey is conducted.

@Trane (and many others)

Please stop using the "for the science" phrase. This rather overused wording has about as much meaning as "let's do it for the children". There are many (and very different) scientific aspects to each of the BOINC-based projects. Are you in it for the astronomy of SETI, the biology of Predictor, etc? Are you interested in the computer science aspect of distributed computing? What about the (non-existant to date) social science aspects of distributed computing or the social science interest in one of the largest cooperative projects in human history? In watching posts to all the BOINC message boards, it appears that most who invoke this "for the science" phrase do so as some sort of appeal to a sacred concept. I can only ask how many persons that use such a phrase have actually looked at the 'science' of the projects to see if they believe that they are reasonable projects to begin with (e.g., how many academic papers been published from the projects?, has a given project received peer review by a funding agency, etc?). Please note that I am not trying to insult anyone by saying this, I just think that such generalized statements have very little utility, especially when more detailed comments are easily made.
ID: 5066 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Krunchin-Keith [USA]
Volunteer moderator
Project tester
Volunteer developer
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 209
Credit: 1,482,496
RAC: 0
Message 5067 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 14:14:13 UTC
Last modified: 1 Jan 2005, 16:07:24 UTC

ID: 5067 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile FalconFly
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 121
Credit: 592,214
RAC: 0
Message 5069 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 14:29:37 UTC - in response to Message 5066.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 14:32:35 UTC

ID: 5069 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5070 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 15:28:42 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 15:53:43 UTC

@anyone
My comment about having a large cache for LHC refers to this FAQ:
============

I suppose I'm one of the ones that set a large cache for WU's & have had as many as over 300 WU's on 1 PC's a few times, but theres a reason for that.

All my Computers are P4 HT Computers and a Cache of 300 WU's will be lucky to last me 3 days Tops because of all the short run WU's and even if they are regular run WU's I can run 2 WU's every 40 minutes so that amounts to 65 - 70 per day per PC I need not counting all the short 30 sec or 2 min WU's that you run across, I can easily go thru over 100 a day on each PC.

@ FalconFly

To me it doesn't matter what somebody's running the Projects for, if it's for the Credits so be it. If they want to profess it's for the Science so be it also. But I get tired of it being thrown in my face thats it's for the Science because you make it sound like anything I run is somehow less Holy than the WU's you Run.

I feel the WU's that I run are just as important as anybody else's no matter what the reason is I'm running them for. Just because somebody says their running it for the Science doesn't make their WU's any more Scientific than the ones I run ... IMO


ID: 5070 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Trane Francks

Send message
Joined: 18 Sep 04
Posts: 71
Credit: 28,399
RAC: 0
Message 5071 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 16:00:14 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 16:08:22 UTC

> In actuallity The real Bottom Line is if it weren't for the Credits none of
> these Projects would even exist,

I would agree with that with regard to it running under the BOINC platform itself. There is a heap of science being done without any credit whatsoever, however, so the question becomes one of "how to stimulate Joe Average into participating". Is the glory of an abstract number so valuable, really? I have a hard time grasping that.

> If you want to get on your high horse and say it's for the Science or whatever
> floats your boat so be it,

:-) Enter the thinly veiled insult. :-)

It has nothing to do with a high horse, I just honestly believe that credits are secondary to science. The science is the reason for the projects' existence. They do not exist to feed the egos of recognition-hungry participants; they exist in spite of them. The recognition is a sort of necessary evil to feed the egos of those who would donate resources to an otherwise worthy cause.

> So the Credits give you some sort of indication if you doing any good or not.

Frankly, what I mainly notice are people bitching about their lack of credit rather than worrying whether what they've contributed will benefit the project. You yourself dropped a project because you didn't get recognition quickly enough. Pooooooor baby. Not.

> @Trane (and many others)
>
> Please stop using the "for the science" phrase. This rather overused wording
> has about as much meaning as "let's do it for the children".

I'm afraid I have yet to see why "for the science" is an invalid/unwanted expression for participating in science projects. Try again, Scott.

> Please note that I am not trying to insult anyone by saying this,

Bollocks, that's precisely what you're doing. You (and many, many others) can't stand the thought of actually acknowledging the egotistical aspect of competing for something that has no real value, and the difficulty here is that the perceived value, IMO, changes significantly depending on one's viewpoint.

If I say I've done 12,800 WUs, is that good or bad? What value does the number represent? Does it have any worth? The number, in and of itself, means nothing, so one must look in context. Okay, so now we say I've done 12,800 classic S@H WUs. Does that have any worth? Some. The fact that each WU was crunched many times besides my own work might reduce the value of that contribution. Does the fact I've done 12,800 WUs make me any better than somebody who has done, say, 1000? I dare say not. I simply made use of resources that somebody else may not have had available.

Now, why would I invest in the effort to administer these systems and enable them to participate in BOINC projects? My slowest system is a dual P-II 300. My fastest is a P-III 1 GHz box. Not one is leading edge, so if it were about credits, why would I even bother? I wouldn't. My BOINC position falls in triple digits daily. Just wait till the masses from S@H join! So, why participate? SCIENCE! There is no other reason.

> But I get tired of it being thrown in my face thats it's for the Science
> because you make it sound like anything I run is somehow less Holy than the
> WU's you Run.

Let's just say that a S@H cert that proves you crunched so many WUs is worth about the time it takes to download the PDF file, i.e., naught. That you cannot see the worth of your contribution without some arbitrary number affixed to it is interesting and worthy of study.

[ Edited to add: This guy gets it big-time: http://lhcathome.cern.ch/forum_thread.php?id=990#5068 ]
ID: 5071 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
STE\/E

Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 04
Posts: 352
Credit: 1,393,150
RAC: 0
Message 5074 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 16:35:08 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 16:37:40 UTC

S@H cert that proves you crunched so many WUs is worth about the time it takes to download the PDF file, i.e., naught.
=========

I've never once bothered to download the Certificates with Seti Classic or if there are any for BOINC them either ... I figured I had enough Toilet Paper sitting around as it was ... ;)
=========
The recognition is a sort of necessary evil to feed the egos of those who would donate resources to an otherwise worthy cause.
=========

Exactly, The Credits are a necessary evil to attract enough people to participate in the Projects...IMO So whats so wrong with wanting them done right then ...
ID: 5074 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
ric

Send message
Joined: 17 Sep 04
Posts: 190
Credit: 649,637
RAC: 0
Message 5076 - Posted: 10 Nov 2004, 17:00:55 UTC - in response to Message 5071.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2004, 17:02:04 UTC

>So, why participate? SCIENCE! There is no other reason.

-Fun
-testing own hardware
-test if a new cpu cooler is keeping the temp and keeping quiet
-challenge, how much downclock/adjust memory timings is needed to "generate" the maximum of possible, "well done", coherence, valuable
for science AND credits;-)

Unfortunately those numbers ARE the only interface to see, if running propper and if the CPUs are not only used to warm up the Behausung/dwellings.

-passive helping people at LHC developing future version of project clients
-active helping to build the now virtual existing particle accelerator.
-As a Swiss, helping the "swiss project" (cern/lhc international oriented)
-As a Swiss, helping the brave Swiss people crunching hard
-
-
-

ID: 5076 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 . . . 7 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : Official Word on no more Work Units...!!!!


©2022 CERN